A thought provoking post from Financial Uproar (yes, a man) who basically asks women why they refuse to marry down, when men have been doing it for centuries!
His last paragraph sums it up:
It seems to me that women want to have it both ways. They want to maximize their own earnings, but still end up with a guy more successful than they are.
They want to feel taken care of, yet independent at the same time.
They fight for wage equality and equal opportunities, yet refuse to even consider dating someone who doesn’t meet their definition of success.
They want to simultaneously take care of themselves and have a man take care of them.
Enough with the double standard.
I see his points, but here are my responses as a woman who believes in 50/50 in a relationship (I pay half for everything including rent, food, etc), and who has a partner who has equal earning power (although in a regular job situation, he earns 30% more, being that he is older & more established for experience, but as a freelancer, I earn the same amount as he does).
I wouldn’t say we’re REFUSING to marry down, it’s just that we have other priorities to think about.
FAMILY & CHILDREN
If you don’t want kids, why not “marry down”? But if you want kids, my earning power would be diminished for the period of having children (especially in a job like mine where it’s 100% travel), and I need someone who can fill in the gaps there just in case.
Women don’t have the choice to NOT carry the child (save for adoption or foster care).
If we could offload it or take turns with our partners (lucky lesbians), we would!! However, carrying a new life for 9 months, and then having to go through giving birth and recovering from that, while taking care of the child for at least the first 6-12 months of their life, is not an option we can shrug off.
We’re the ones who have to physically do it all and it affects our jobs and therefore, our earning power.
Maternity leave in Canada is pretty generous, but the U.S. is not as forgiving. You could be on maternity leave UNPAID for a year or however long, and in between that time, you could be fired and replaced by someone else who doesn’t have a small baby hanging off them.
Therefore, we can do things like save as much as possible from our income, but frankly, shizz happens.. so we need a partner to take over just in case something happens, so that the family stays secure and well taken care of.
In the case of all single mothers who do all of this on their own, I salute you.
WE DON’T OPERATE IN THE SAME SOCIAL CIRCLES
The main point here is that I wouldn’t even meet him unless it was by chance.
I am not saying this to be a snob, I am saying it’s the truth.
If I have friends who are doctors, lawyers, in business, and they have friends of the same social circle, it’d be unusual to meet someone there who didn’t go to the colleges we attended, hang out in the same professional circles, work at the same jobs and/or stayed friends all the way from elementary or high school.
Someone who works at McDonald’s generally does not have the same friends of someone who works at a bank as an investment banker.
My second point is that it gets uncomfortable at gatherings when your friends don’t swim in the same circles.
That’s not to say that we can NEVER have friends who work at minimum wage jobs, or whatever… but if you put them all together, it might cause tension or discomfort especially in a romantic situation where they are the only ones who didn’t go to the same college and so on.
Or they just feel intimidated.
I was once told that I used fancy English instead of so-called normal English, just because I said: “I am not” rather than “I ain’t“. His parents actually told me that I made them uncomfortable with my choice of words.
Our friends may not have the same topics of interest or the same social/educational background to feel comfortable with each other.
This doesn’t just apply to women “marrying down” either.
For the record, I have seen this with men who have wives who aren’t in the same social circles as their husbands and their friends with their wives, so even when guys “marry down”, depending on the gap in social and educational status, their wives can also feel left out from conversations or just plain uncomfortable.
They feel like they don’t know what to talk about, they get shy, they feel like they aren’t intellectual enough to hold a conversation — lots of insecurity comes through without them knowing it.
They may look for any opportunity to either try and prove themselves to be worthy (charities, going back to school, etc — my cousin’s wife is like this, a real go-getter in society) or they find ways to beg out of these engagements or avoid them completely.
PULLING THEIR WEIGHT FINANCIALLY
Granted, I don’t need much money to live, if I think about it deeply.
Sure, I spend more than I need to live, but if push came to shove, I could cut down on my spending habits.
However, that situation wouldn’t last for long if I could help it, because I’d look for a higher-paying job ASAP so that I could go back to eating good food and not living off ramen noodles.
I may be down and out, in Starbucks or McDonald’s serving the masses, but I’d have a Plan B on the side to get out of it and have a better job, considering my educational background and experience.
Even so, I want someone who can pull their weight financially, the way that I can. I don’t want to support anyone as much as they don’t want to support me! I want to be interdependent, not dependent OR independent. If not, what’s the point of a partner?
I had a friend from my business school who was fired unexpectedly from a company, and she ended up waitressing to pay her share of the bills even though her investment-banking husband could have easily handled the bills on his own.
THAT, is pulling your weight financially.
I don’t need a millionaire (I have my own money, thank you), I just need someone I can bond with and who works hard, and doesn’t just say: I will be a McDonald’s burger slinger forever, and nothing more.
MEN GENERALLY DON’T WANT WOMEN WHO INTIMIDATE THEM
I am controversial in saying this, but it is my experience that not only do women don’t want to marry down, men don’t want to marry up either.
I am not saying it is EVERYONE’S experience or views, but that’s generally what I am observing, even when I talk to guy friends. They want to feel like THE MAN.
Read:
- What would happen if men didn’t have to impress women with their salary?
- Do men prefer women who make less money than they do?
LOOK I JUST WANT A PARTNER
The bottom line of it all is that I just want a partner.
An equal partner who is comfortable with my friends, is ambitious as I am, who can talk about the same topics that I can, rather than tell me “what you said, just went over my head“, and is truly my better half.
If I make more than him, great. So long as he doesn’t start getting lazy, slacking off and refusing to pull his weight because I’m there to fall back on.
…and if this guy happened to be working at a minimum wage job or going back to school at that moment, I wouldn’t hold it against him at all.
It wouldn’t freaking matter if I fell in love with him at the so-called ‘wrong stage’ of his life.
To me, he’s basically ‘making it work’ (in Tim Gunn’s words) to improve his situation and that is impressive.
I would see the potential in such a partner and his temporary situation wouldn’t matter as long as he had plans to move out of it, and not be complacent.
Besides that, I should note that it seems wives who end up supporting their husbands (usually it’s because the husband has a failing business he tried his hand at), and/or are the breadwinners in the marriages, tend to resent it greatly even if it makes no sense.
Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver.
I cleared $60,000 in 18 months earning $65,000 gross/year.
Now I am self-employed, and you can read more about 
What “conversations” are you and your friends having that would “go over their heads?”
My husband dropped out of high school to race motorcycles. I went to UC Davis for undergrad and UVA School of Law. We settled down in Richmond and have a diverse group of friends.
My husband makes far more money than me having a motorcycle dealership. In fact I have often thought about working as their in-house council, but they don’t really need an attorney.
My husband regularly attends cocktail parties with me and the partners at my firm like him more than I think they like me. Having someone from outside of the field gives them something to talk about.
Maybe in other professions it is different, but in law, when we run out of things to talk about, we either gossip or talk about current cases. With my husband there (at cocktail parties) or his friends there (at the lake or dinner parties at our house) the guys talk about all sorts of things like concerts, movies, vacations, sports…..
I am quite sure that if one of the attorneys started discussing the finer points of rules against perpetuities or the latest restatement of torts, my husband or his cronies would quickly suggest “getting a cold beer” and change the conversation to something much more enjoyable.
No matter what you think–shop talk is boring, and you should never discuss undergrad philosophers or literature of any kind at a dinner party.
Translation: All women are whores.
Double standards? No, no…
it’s more like doublethink!
“The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind
simultaneously, and accepting both of them… To tell deliberate lies
while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become
inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back
from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence
of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality
which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using
the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by
using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh
act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely,
with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.”
Boy, Orwell would be so proud of modern feminist women.
Dear FB,
I agree with your statement: “MEN GENERALLY DON’T WANT WOMEN WHO INTIMIDATE THEM.” My corollary is that almost any woman who has confidence, a good income, and opinions intimidates men who are lazy, mentally ill, or wasted their lives.
My mother always said, “If he’s too intimidated to ask you out, he’s too intimidated to marry you.”
Intelligent self-confident men love marrying high-achieving women. Doctors, lawyers, business owners, professors, in short achievers of all types (regardless of where they are in life right now) love smart women. There’s no need to marry down.
Smart women have major advantages:
1. Women with 4-year college degrees marry at a higher rate and divorce at a lower rate, according to the National Marriage Project at the UVirginia.
2. Smart women who are cheerful and have good personalities never lack for camaraderie.
3. Smart women cut their risks. They don’t waste their time dating men who will embarrass them, use their money, or abuse them.
4. Smart women prepare for the long purpose filled life. We know we will outlive the men around us, so we make sure we’ve got great friends, a fully funded retirement, and a life plan whether there’s a man or not.
5. Smart women reject the notion that marriage is the ticket to happiness. About half of all U.S. marriages fail. So a wedding ring is no guarantee of a happy life. Close emotional relationships are.
Its a shame that women like the one who wrote this “article” exist. Gold diggers, even if you believe you are “inter”dependent, LOL, you don’t want a partner, you want a healthy bank account. There is a word for women like you in Spanish, “interesada”. You only care about money and stability. No wonder this current generation of children are being described as the most narcissistic, they are being raised by women like you.
women want “equality” as same as men. BUT, oops, it seem most of them just want expand their share in education and income just like what men have, alas, they refuse to take the same responsibilities and obligations that men put in their shoulder. So, who is actually that being selfish in this case?
If women can fully understand the meaning of “equality gender” is, they should have known that the chance to marrying down is becoming higher for those women who achieved sophisticated accomplishments in both their education and career, far better than the average men could have. Actually some men could compromise this situation despite of their lack in knowledge and earning income, by taking less demanding job, so he can do more housework and taking care their children while his wife raising money for their family. Some open-minded inteligent women can do this, only those “ill-insecure” women that couldn’t accept the fact regardless they are claiming themselves as highly educated women
Neither men or women would be feel pleasant if they are intimidated by their partner. So, this obviously a misleading conception, if only men that feel intimidated by their spouse.
Giving born to devoted child that a mother has been waited for years is remarkable feelings that cannot be described by any words or even bought by how much money in this world has. Women regardless she is feminist or not, has the natural passion to nurture and raise the child that she has from her own womb. If you have plan to getting a child, then do it when your are still young and your fertility at its top condition. If not, in the later time, thus don’t make any second thought to have a child since as women get older, they will face up more health complications when trying to get pregnant and give born to the baby. Do not feel relieve if there is a case that 40 something woman still can giving a baby, that is rare case. Statistically, most women don’t have that miracle
Ah. So women really ARE golddiggers. Knew it.
You officially lack the right to complain when you’re called “bitches” and “hos”.
Huh?
i am a straight man that had been married twice at one time, and they did cheat on me. i never cheated on them, and i was a very caring and loving husband. i guess they wanted more out of life, and i was just too good to them. had i known that they were very trashy to begin with, i obviously would have not married them in the first place. being single and alone sucks for me now, because i was very committed to them at the time and i would have thought that my first marriage was going to work out. women have certainly changed for the worse, over the years. they cannot seem to stay with one man like they did years ago. i would definitely say, women cheat way more than men. it is much more difficult meeting a good woman again for me, because they are very nasty today and have a very bad attitude when i try to start a conversation with them.they are just so rotten today. there are many women today that are lesbians, and that will make it a problem as well.
Wow I will never feel bad for dating a girl strictly for her looks anymore. I’m meeting more and more girls that want everything, listing conditions and what not. It’s kind of no wonder why real love doesn’t exist anymore. Look, when it comes down to it, guys love because they truly, deeply love. If I or most guys are attracted to a girl, it does’nt matter what her social status is or how much money she makes or what family she comes from, I want THAT girl. Women seem to love because of this or because of that. I see it everywhere and I try so hard to find exceptions so I don’t stray and generalize but the exceptions have still yet to be found.
Women love deeply too.
But love doesn’t put food on the table when times get rough. We need someone to depend on as well.
…And someone to clean out and take a house from when it’s time to Eat, Pray, Love.
Hey, I just found this post (was on vacation), and it’s very thought provoking.
I did not marry down. I’m an engineer, I married one too, and while we were married he got his PhD, so he makes about 40-50% more than me. It was 50%, but I got a few raises/promotions in the last year totalling about $20k.
I can see your point on being in different “classes”. I grew up poor, lower class, in a family that says “ain’t”. I like to think that it means that I can travel among many classes and feel comfortable. I grew up country. My family is country. I love them. Some of them have been in the same low-level jobs for years, some not. One sister was an X-ray tech turned SAHM turned manager at the GAP. One sister went to college in her 30’s and is a company VP. One is an accountant and got her degree at nights over 10 years. One got a job out of high school at a university and has gotten promotion after promotion. My brother quit a good paying job that he hated to be a truck driver. HIS wife went to college and “married down”. And BOTH our mothers were SO bothered by that. Her mother talks about how many hours she works. Her answer “do you know how much I MAKE?” MY mother talks about how much my brother does for the girls, and I say “Mom, he’s the ‘wife’. He works 25-30 hours a week.” Their relationship works for them. My family hunts and fishes and gardens and I am unapologetic about it.
I have been in situations where the “educated” mix with the “uneducated”, and it does get weird. I find people are surprised at my upbringing. I guess I have “middle class” stamped all over me.
I married a guy who makes less than I do and given the chance, I would probably negotiate the terms of that dynamic in a more formal manner before the marriage, as in a pre-nup. For instance, I would have negotiated responsibilities for household chores and cooking, since being married to someone who doesn’t bring home a lot of money AND refuses to cook or clean is a huge drag.
That’s FB on the photo.
JMO, paying paying 50% of everything? Your friend waitressing even though her husband could more than pay the bills? Silly, just silly. That’s a contractual, room mate type of arrangement. Having a partner is different. At any time, one partner in a relationship needs more of something than the other, whether it’s love, money whatever. Over time, it all evens out. Remember, not all important contributions are financial. And regarding different roles? I have a friend whose husband simply wasn’t a high wage earner. She is. She on the other hand could not keep a home to save her life. He could. It worked perfectly for them especially once they stopped pretending that they wanted him to get a job. They lived like that for years. She never once regretted it and genuinely appreciated that they were both using their skills in the best way possible. And when he died unexpectedly at age 49, there were absolutely no regrets of who she married or their life together.
Great post, FB. I’ve been loving all these posts around the blogosphere about relationships lately! So many different perspectives and lots of great points! 🙂
Most of my dating experience has been through high school/college and their associated activities, and I really do find there is usually more common ground (i.e., friends, experiences, general goals in life, level of education obv) with those guys. I guess we have more similar “fundamentals/foundation”, so to speak.
With the one guy (limited sample) I dated who pursued trades,I found that after the initial spark, I found it was more difficult find things we had in common. Sometimes, it was awkward around my friends, or he wouldn’t really take interest in my work, and vice versa for myself.
Even though I think long term, I might feel too much pressure if I was the bread winner, I am ok with supporting my guy for the following reasons:
1) it was temporary – they are in school/training
2) they are pulling their weight with actively looking for jobs, side gigs, doing their share of chores, etc.
3) they are the primary care giver and they are ok with it (a few of guy friends have told me they are really ok with this!)
Like you, I just want a partner I can share my life with. Of course, I can take care of myself – I think most of us can and do. But I do love sharing my life with someone special, and it’s not end of the world which one of us makes more, as long as our goals in life are aligned.
Whew…. I hope I didn’t contradict myself there!
But the fact is women are increasingly “marrying down,” both in terms of income and education levels. Women now get the majority of college degrees. Women are now more likely than ever before to be the bread-winner in dual-earner households. Those are just facts.
I have read similar studies, and they are misleading. Many of them are based on census data, which doesn’t state whether or not those women were earning more than their husbands on their wedding day. They just assume that those women were the breadwinners prior to them saying ” I do”.
Currently, in about 25% of marriages, women are the breadwinners. What that statistic doesn’t show is that many women became the breadwinner by default when their husbands became victims of the poor economy, and became unemployed or underemployed. Some married women go back to school later on in life, and eventually surpass their husbands income. Nothing in those statistics actually proves that women walked down the isle as the breadwinner. I don’t know about you, but I have never attended a wedding in which the bride was earning more than the groom.
Let’s face it, women are still very unlikely to marry men of smaller means.
When it comes to being a women in a professional career, particularly one in a male dominated field I definitely feel like the cards are stacked against me. I am currently pregnant with our first (possibly only) child and the higher earner of our family. I make double my husband’s salary – he’s a carpenter, I’m a civil engineer, but we both grew up standard middle class. If one looks at our situation from a purely financial standpoint, then we are not equals, but that’s about as useful as looking at economics without considering the cost of externalities.
I make more money than my husband, but he brings more skills to our relationship. He can fix practically anything, he does his fair share of the household chores (moreso, now that I am in my 8th month), and has definitely made my life richer just for being in it. On many occasions he has come home with something for free, that is on our “wishlist” but out of our financial range. Some examples include: a metal firepit for backyard campfires in the middle of the city, 50 lbs of apples that we used to brew hard apple cider, a gorgeous old truck to hold my performance costumes, a stained glass window (which he then installed in our apartment).
FMLA will protect my position for up to 12 weeks, and depending on the method of delivery I am entitled to 60% pay for 6 or 8 weeks through short term disability. My plan is to take the required time off and then go back part time building up to full time for the remaining 6 weeks. Why? Because my blue collar husband, who last year decided that he want to go to school, is ready for a career change (unfortunately he came to this realization after application deadlines had passed). I guess carpentry in your mid-30’s isn’t nearly as much fun as it was in your 20’s. So he will transition to being a SAHD for our bun in the oven, and I’ll be the main breadwinner. He’s going to take some online classes to get the gen ed classes out of the way, then transition to night classes. By the time he graduates, our little one will be ready for pre-school.
You know, what? We couldn’t be happier with our plan. He doesn’t feel emasculated by our roles, he is proud to be moving into Dad as primary caregiver. It makes me wonder how many men who are the breadwinners are secretly envious of his path. He has the luxury of a career change without wondering how he will support a family at the same time. Certainly the other husbands in our childbirth class were mystified by him.
That is a great solution! I’m also an engineer. I was the breadwinner while my husband was in school. I know quite a few SAHD’s in the area.
I agree with you about the children thing. I would like to have children, but I’ve always told people I don’t. Reason being? I have student loans/other debt, and I’m terrified of what having a child will mean (ie. maternity leave in the US). And women are in a vulnerable position. I know maternity leave is supposed to keep your job for you, but in this economy, who knows if that is actually true.
Additionally, I think the reason my boyfriend of 3+ years has yet to “marry down” (even though we’ve been living together for years & have talked about spending our lives together for the same amount of time), is because I do not make as much as him (plus my student loan debt). I think he would prefer that I did have more money, because then we, as partners, would be more financially stable.
You’d be surprised at how much debt people can pay off. People have paid off $20k-50k or more off student debt. I listen to Dave Ramsey and a lot of people have had so much more debt. It’s not uncommon to pay off $100k or more off debt. One couple on his show had $300k in debt.
If you’re dedicated, live below your means, take another job, then you can pay it off. Don’t listen to the lie that debt is a way of life. A lot of the people on his show, sold off their stuff, got 2nd jobs, lived on rice and beans, downgraded to beaters. Sometimes you have to live like no one else so you later on you can live like no one else.
Anyway don’t just give up because you have student loans. It’s your life. Btw if you’re a good professional at your job, then your company will want to keep you. Don’t be afraid to take maternity leave. The world lived through the great depression and survived, we will survive through the great recession.
The economy comes down and it comes up. I would urge you to take the necessary steps to get out of debt, I just really think if you want to be a mother then you should make that dream a possibility. The writer of this blog paid off $50k in student loans. Anything is possible.
I started dating a penniless student. I was paying for most of our dates and entertainment, but I didn’t mind at all, because I really enjoyed his charming geeky company and I had plenty of disposable income. Now he has blossomed into well-earning IT guy, and has actually eclipsed my salary. But I would have continued dating him even if he hadn’t found a good job, or if he had decided to study further.
The earning power of my partner is not critical for me; I think I would probably be happier with a frugal poet than a spendy CEO. However, I totally get what FB is saying about finding a partner with comparable education and ambition. College/university education in my country is free, so it’s pretty accessible. I don’t know if I would go out with someone who hadn’t studied *something* unless they used their time to go travel the world or write a book instead. Someone with interests or a plan.
I’m in the mood to stir up controversy today, so I will be blunt:
I won’t date down because the sex is bad.
I used to think, I don’t care what the guy earns because I can hold my own financially. I’m probably more driven than most guys I meet. To the point, I switched careers and nearly tripled my income in a couple years. Few people have the guts and determination to pull that off. I thought, I trust my work ethic more than other people’s so if I work hard enough, I can bring in the income to make money no longer a factor in my relationships.
Dead wrong.
Dated a brilliant guy with years of great experience while he was at a top 10 professional school. He was in school when the economy imploded and there were zero jobs to be had. He couldn’t find a job. He didn’t feel “like a man” and well…those feelings translate from the head to the bedroom.
Dated a guy with a good professional job after I started my first job after grad school. He’s very well paid but there is no growth trajectory in his career. He has to make a big switch to get growth in both responsibility and in salary. He doesn’t like the switch (from paralegal to lawyer via law school) because pretty much all lawyers he knows are terribly unhappy. He sees my current position and future career trajectory and confesses that he’s intimidated. He doesn’t see why I like him — we have the same tastes in music, food, all the enjoyable parts of life, and I like that he’s easy going and fun. The fact that he’s unhappy with his job being a job and not a career, and uncomfortable with my ambition, both translated into a so-so level of chemistry.
Friend’s little sister was dating a guy who was employed only part-time doing what he loved, trying to break from the minors into the majors (sports referee) but wasn’t working on a Plan B or working on side income during the off-season. It drove her nuts, when she lands a job, negotiates a 15% increase above the initial offer, and gets her own apartment and a new car…he started referring to it as “our apartment.” She wanted him to get another job but he wasn’t actively looking. I listened awhile before I asked her, point blank, whether there was a change in their physical relationship that coincided with her new job offer. Then I asked her if that was something she could live with for the long term. She got awfully quiet.
Class is a huge thing world-wide. In the U.S. class is a touchy issue. A lot of Americans want to act like it doesn’t exist but it does. Although the class system in the U.S. is not so tight as it is in India or other countries. In many parts of the world education is a great way on moving up in class.
So is fame, fame opens doors that it otherwise wouldn’t. Such as when actors, musicians, authors, etc. make it big, they join the affluent class. I do care about class even though I’m not wealthy. I wouldn’t marry down and I don’t think that most women should either. With the cost of inflation and retirement you need to make as much money as possible.
I don’t want to eat Alpo when I’m 75 (if I make it to that age). I don’t need to date a millionaire, nothing against the wealthy or anything, I just want a guy who has a career, is cute, intelligent and funny. My bf is all those things and he works in IT. I’m so happy I found him. He’s a saver too. He’s a keeper and he’s who I want to be with forever.
People don’t want to act as if money affects everything but it does. It affects where you live, where you go to college, where you will retire, whom your friends are, where you shop, where you vacation and if you vacation. Now let’s say BF and I break up, and I meet a waiter, okay, as long as this waiter guy is intelligent, cute, funny and we have things in common that’s fine, but he better have a goal of a career/job and a place to go.
I don’t like people who work for low wages for 10 years because they never bothered to make a plan for there life. There are people out there that just bounce from low wage job to low wage job, don’t have savings, don’t save for retirement, and still live with their parents. Yuck.
Again I don’t need to date/marry a millionaire, just a guy who is independent and has a job/career. BTW, it doesn’t have to be some fancy career. There are plumbers and electricians who make good money. Sure my BF is in the white collar world, but if he were a blue-collar guy I would date him.
In fact, my BF said that if he could do it over again he would become an electrician but because of his parents pushing college, he never thought that was an option but he did say if he had become one that he would be making more than he would as a software engineer.
Anyway, overall it just makes sense to make as much money as possible. The cost of inflation is just rising higher and higher across the U.S. If you want a comfortable retirement in the U.S. you need to save between $1-3 million. Frankly I’d rather take a hit to a $1 million portfolio rather than a $200-500k portfolio. For most people, their career is the #1 wealth builder.
I don’t mean to be so money focused but finances are all around us and they do mean a lot. People like to say “money doesn’t matter” but it does. Money affects what you eat, what you will eat, where you live, how nice your house is, where you work, how hard and how many hours you work, where you shop. Where your kids go to college, where you retire, and if you can EVEN retire at all.
I do believe health is the first wealth and then after that it’s your family, and friends but money affects so much in our world. Many people divorce over money more than over anything else. I could just never date someone who only made $10k for the rest of his life. I just couldn’t. BTW I work too, I live with my bf and we do split expenses too.
But yeah I also think “marrying down” can be different. What if you’re an heiress who falls in love with an accountant? Obviously you will marry down but its not like he’s mooching off you. But if you’re a female accountant and you date a man who has been a server since he was 18 and he’s 38 now and he’s still a waiter. I just don’t recommend that.
If money is a factor to date someone, it will be a factor if he loses his job. Frankly, you sound like the type that would bouce pretty quick if your boyfriend lost his job and couldn’t find something better.
By the way, this seems to be an issue with only women. Once upon a time, men dated women who were wayy outside their socioeconomic status. We are talking lawyers marrying secretaries. In fact, men have been marrying down for a very long time. Women are unable to grasp the concept.
Let’s say you earn 75k and a waiter earns 20k. Upon marriage, you would have increased your income from 75k to 95k. That’s still very impressive. How exactly would that jeopardize your future?
Sometimes its not that the women have a problem marrying down, its that men have a problem marrying up.
Oh please. Women generally reject men if they earn less.
Generally? I think it depends on ambition and % variance between their incomes. Some men work in industries that simply pay less even for the same amount of talent.
Men *do* have trouble marrying up. It’s not just on the woman’s side.
I have a guy friend whom I would have married had he asked. But it takes a confident man to pursue and marry a self-made woman. He didn’t have it.
If you are such a self – made woman, why didn’t you ask the guy you liked to marry you? I guess you didn’t have the confidence either.
Women seem to be very hypocritical… I’m surprised most can’t see the glaring inconsistencies in logic here. A modern woman that knows what she wants will ask a guys hand in an LTR if it feels right – if you sit there doing nothing, every time, you’re bound to be seen as an object devoid of autonomy.
Generally? I think it depends on ambition and % variance between their incomes. Some men work in industries that simply pay less even for the same amount of talent.
Men *do* have trouble marrying up. It’s not just on the woman’s side.
I have a guy friend whom I would have married had he asked. But it takes a confident man to pursue and marry a self-made woman. He didn’t have it.
I am and have always been the bread winner in my relationship. His earning potential is…how do I say…challenged. 🙂 Most would say that financially he is beneath me, but you know, I do love him. 😉
Interdependence + partnership. Well said.
I’m marrying down in class. And class is a big thing. It’s very awkward to be introduced to a culture of alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, friends who would happily steal from you, prison, when you come from a protective and uptight Asian immigrant family. He’s got absolutely nothing going for him background wise and everything he has comes from his own accord – fortunately he has potential and ambition, if not yet firm direction.
He has a wide range of friends, most of whom I do feel comfortable with, but I definitely would not have had anything to do with otherwise. And he certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable mingling at professional functions with me.
That said, I’m not marrying down in intelligence (and not necessarily earning potential). He’s extremely sharp, is good at pretty much everything he takes on (but will probably always be blue collar as he’s not the corporate type) and given that journalism is a small field (so not many jobs) with low starting pay and little ability to increase pay (due to no jobs and a very flat structure generally, unlike I suppose more corporate industries) it’s not unlikely he’ll eventually outearn me. Hence it would make sense for me to marry up in income.
I am glad to hear a voice of assent on that. As someone who has dated outside her class, people get offended easily or look at me funny when I state it matter-of-factly.
A lot of my friends think/thought that too. They just probably would not have said it.
The distinction is that while I am out of my ‘class’ in past relationships, I never looked down on them or their family (those parents I mentioned were AMAZING and very kind/generous) but these are touchy subjects.
eemusings we could be the same person in the same situation.
on the surface, I’m marrying down in class.
“It’s very awkward to be introduced to a culture of alcohol, cigarettes,
drugs, friends who would happily steal from you, prison, when you come
from a protective and uptight Asian immigrant family”
YES! Only replace “Asian” with another uptight, achievement-focused ethnic immigrant family.
beneath the surface, the guy, through his own luck, trust in his more “business-y” friends’ advice, age, and childlessness/singleness, he’s accumulated a somewhat okay nest egg. A couple properties, no debt and liquid assets.
What he needs is someone like me, with a business degree and corporate experience to show him how to use what he has and grow it.
I think that, aside from the way I look (heh), this^^^ is the reason he pretty much proposed to me on our 2nd date.
Gosh he’s such a great guy, sweet, loving, giving, loyal. If I were to date a Toronto yuppie, as opposed to my American backwater beau, I’d have to deal with the crushing arrogance of the men here, who pull in the same or a bit more than me salary-wise (but sometimes much more), but think they’re hot stuff and a great catch due to all the women throwing themselves at guys here (supply and demand). Nuts to that.
http://financialanarchist.tumblr.com
Most of the men I have dated, except for one have all made less than me. I worry about it some, because I don’t make a ton of money. I make enough to support myself comfortably, but not another adult and two kids — and I want kids. And, in my experience, men don’t like it when women make more. Two of my exes had a big problem with me being the breadwinner.
That said, if I fall in love with someone who makes less than me and he’s ok with it.. so be it. We’ll make it work somehow. As long as they’re doing something they absolutely love or are seriously working toward it.. I’m happy. How the person treats me, the interests we share, etc.. all of that is so much more important than someone’s paycheck.
I think every situation is different. I don’t think what I am saying or what Uproar is saying, is the be-all and end-all.
I just feel like most guys don’t like it if a girl makes more (as you said), and that has been my experience. If they made less than me, they were always talking about how they were going to make more one day, bla bla bla… it seemed like a big deal for them and ultimately it didn’t work out as a result of it.
Maybe men don’t like it when women make more money than they do is because of the way those women treat them. When a man buys a house with his money, his wife/girlfriend can say that it’s our house or her house. But when a woman buys a house with her money, will her husband/boyfriend be allowed to say it’s our house or his house? Women say they that they don’t mind if men make less than they do but resentment builds up after a while.
Just because one marries down in income does not mean they marry down in class or intellect. My husband and I met when I was in university. He makes about twice what I do, but has a blue collar job. At the point when we met, there was no way to know what my earnings would be. Now I have an entry level professional job with a great deal of earnings potential, but if you look at it in terms of income, he married down. Both of us know this isn’t truly the case – we are on par intellectually, come from similar families and are best friends. We also know that at some point, my earnings are going to equal or surpass his. But, for the time being, he still makes almost twice what I do.
At this point in my life, I’ve seen women marry down and I’ve seen men marry up. To me, it’s just a social norm that’s taking a while to die out. In the US, lots of women who grew up in the 1950s when it seemed taboo for women to work are still alive. I think that Amanda sums things up pretty well.
Great post. I’d just add that women have been taught to “marry up” for centuries, and it wasn’t until relatively recently in the Western world that we’ve even had the possibility of earning as much as a man (sometimes we still earn less for the same work but that’s a whole other issue…). It’s going to take some time to reverse that mindset.
Along the same lines, men have been expected to be financial providers for centuries as well. I think that may account for a lot of WHY men are uncomfortable “marrying up”. It is hard to let go of expectations that have existed for generations. Again, it will take some time for that mindset to fade.
It’s my opinion that men need to start taking on more household and childcare roles now that women are working and earning more. But a lot of men I’ve met are unwilling to do so- they’ve been raised by women who do all the household stuff, and they expect the same from a female partner even if that partner earns more. Or they feel that doing those things would be “unmanly”. Which, to me, is just plain silly, since men are just as capable of taking care of a kid and cleaning up after themselves. But again, those social expectations are hard to reverse.
Unfortunately, the point we’re at is probably one of the most confusing parts of this transition. As long as we equate “male” with “provider” or judge men based on their earning power, and as long as we equate “female” with “caretaker” and assume they should take on the majority of the household tasks, then we’re going to struggle with the idea of a woman earning more in the relationship. And until that is more reversed, women are still going to look for higher earners to marry and men will still look for lower earners.
I agree that it’s much more complex than women being snobs or gold diggers and automaticaly reject men based on their earning power. Great point re. how t it’s not just about women not wanting to mary down, it’s about men not wanting to marry up. Women are being wise and avoiding getting into a relationship set up to fail. Sure, plenty of guys say that they would like a “sugar mamma” and wouldn’t mind being the stay at home partner, but in my experience, it’s mostly talk. Most men tie a huge importance to their earning power and would have a problem if their female partners outearned them by a lot (or even a little). this is especially true if the man has to “marry up” and socliaze with his wife’s acquitances who may be in a higher social rung than him. It leads to fights, passive-aggresive behaviour, and men cheating just to prove that they are “still the man” – I’ve known real life examples of these situations. Not to say that there are no exceptoins to this, but why set yourself up for failure if you know that generally this kind of relationships do not work out?
Even guys who want a sugar momma, don’t really want one. They feel emasculated when their friends tease them, and they can say things like — Oh but my woman pays for EVERYTHING!… but inside, they feel like they aren’t manly enough with that kind of teasing.
Or society makes those men feel like they aren’t manly enough. Then again, society makes women who leave their children with their fathers feel as if they are not womanly enough.
Society should probably have little to no bearing on how relationship roles are coordinated.
Where are you meeting these guys who are afraid of women with more money than them? That sounds completely ridiculous. Unless the guy is some Muslim with a religious pretext behind his need to feel “dominant,” most men don’t really care. I think what women are describing as “intimidation” comes from the fact that guys are afraid *women* won’t want anything to do with them if perceived to be subordinate. We’d think “Gee, I really like this girl… But if she’s anything like most women, it’s likely she’ll never respect me…” It’s entirely introspective, and based on women’s checklists – because women ultimately choose us, not the other way around.
Either way, if a wealthier woman convinces an underclass man that she isn’t going to be resentful and belittling, I guarantee you most men’s insecurity would evaporate.
I commented on the Financial Uproar post, so I won’t repeat it here.
I feel you summed it up perfectly when you referred to being “interdependant”, as well as being comfortable in each others lives.
Bravo on a well written post (as usual).
Re: “Great post as usual”.. you are too kind! not all my posts are gems. I’m particularly proud of this one because of Uproar’s prodding 🙂
I just want the whole package, which includes ambition. It isn’t about financial success, it is about attitude. My husband and I met as students, and I was definitely attracted to his intelligence and drive, but neither of us had much money.
Which is partly the reason why you would probably not be interested in people who say: I just want to work minimum wage my whole life and chill out, and do nothing.
Just out of curiosity, how much does one have to earn to gain your approval? I mean, most people on this planet earn less than the U.S. minimum wage. Are you suggesting that these people are doing nothing but chilling, and nothing else?
How many millions are in your pocket?
I don’t normally post on blogs, but you know your comment does not make sense…
Those people make less and all of their costs are relative to that standard of living. If she was in another country and the relative income was lower her expectations for her standard of living would also be lower or at least relative.
This article is not about the amount of dollars a person makes, but about the buying power of those dollars.
And since when is making good choices “golddigging”? And no matter how you spin it, dating a person only for their looks is shallow.
The author is not talking about money being the only reason why she dates a person (although I think some of the points about class are kind of demeaning, if you love someone, their presence shouldn’t make you uncomfortable at parties no matter how much they make).
The author is talking about having a certain standard of living for herself, spouse and children. She is also talking about having a certain amount of respect for her husband because she respects his ambition.
That is extremely important in a marriage. Women need to respect their husbands and show them that they do.
None of this has anything to do with him being laid off… Where does she say that? If you already have a healthy respect for your husband, then a woman doesn’t have a problem supporting him if life has knocked him down.
However if his default nature is to give up easily (according to her standards) or if he enjoys a lower standard of living than she does then she has a right to leave before signing them both up for life of unhappiness.
I think everything is rational. A woman would rather be single and alone than settle. And when they do settle, they’re OK with it as well.
Guys don’t care about marriage as much as women. It’s weird always getting approached by 27-35 year old single women going out. Very aggressive, and I share a story on FS today.
Hahaha at least you get approached 🙂
I think some guys would kill to be in your position!
You are absolutely right that everyone is rational, however. People stay single or pair up based on their own decisions.
I donno, maybe! It’s 2am and I just got back from the scene w/ my friend. Yes, I did get approached twice, and one even gave me her name, number, and the 5 items I should order at the restaurant she works at!
She said I looked “comfortable in my skin.” I didn’t dress up, I just wore whatever I did feel comfortable in and whatever.
Night life is quite a scene. One which I don’t partake in much. I love writing too much! 🙂
i love your blog for it’s FIRE ideas, but you’re kind of arrogant. i wrote a blog post for you, hopefully you’ll take my warning seriously.
http://financialanarchist.tumblr.com
Thanks for your response. You are right. I probably do come across as smug in my post. It’s just written from my point of view, the only one I know.
My husband makes less than me. I won’t lie – it’s frustrating because he wants kids. I don’t want the stress of being the bread-winner AND the mother. It’s just too hard. The US does have laws that protect mothers, but it doesn’t always work out that way. You’re allowed 12 weeks of FMLA where you cannot be fired. (However, companies have been known to “eliminate” the position). After those 12 weeks, you’re not protected anymore. Luckily, my company allows me to earn Long Term Sick Time, where I can get paid at 80% for those 12 weeks if i have enough!
I am scared with US laws re: that matter.
I can’t believe how short the mat leave is!!!