Penelope Trunk (whom I read on occasion) wrote an interesting post about why salaries plateau at the age of 40.
Reading both the article and the comments are highly recommended.
Her points:
- Go where the men are, like in male-dominated industries.
- Rewrite your resume (too much experience is just as bad as too little).
- Be a lawyer.
- Specialize.
- Buy a house assuming you’ll never get a raise ever again.
- Recognize your limitations.
- Focus on maintenance
With the exception of #3 because I am not a lawyer, and #2 because I am fairly young in terms of experience, I’d agree with almost everything, only because my career has reflected that.
WOMEN, GO WHERE THE MEN ARE
My first focus is on #1 “Go where the men are”, Penelope writes:
Pay tops out at age 38 for women ($61K) and age 45 for men ($95K).
But the difference, according to PayScale data, is not due to unequal pay for equal work.
Rather, the difference is that women choose lower paying careers, and women are more likely to take time out of the workforce for kids.
So the first thing you can do to prevent your salary from flat-lining is choose a career that men dominate.
But it’s not just about industry—it is also about influence.
Stick to line-management positions rather than support roles.
For example, skip human resources and go to supply chain management.
A woman wrote in heatedly about not agreeing that the difference was due to unequal pay for equal work:
I absolutely agree that women simply don’t ask for more money.
We simply DON’T, and it SUCKS.
Companies generally offer EVERYONE (man or woman) a lowball starting offer, and it is up to the individual to negotiate that offer or to take it.
What I disagree with, is calling that unequal pay.
Playing the devil’s advocate, is it really unequal pay if it is the woman who doesn’t negotiate?
It’s not that the company REFUSES to give women more money when they ask for it, it’s that we just don’t ask for it to begin with.
So it is our fault or the company’s fault?
I also think that assuming the data Penelope referenced took into account that it was the same job, industry, role, experience and set of duties, then the other factors as to why women get paid less all boil down to them not negotiating at all (and taking time off for kids as well).
I don’t think Payscale data takes all of the above into account, but let’s take a sales clerk role as an example.
But if we start looking at the one role, the duties, experience and job are the same, but depending on the company, you could be paid more or less.
See, some companies have special systems or special company-specific knowledge that can’t be taught over night, so if it takes 5 years to learn that knowledge, wouldn’t it make sense that they would be paid more than a clerk who can learn another industry’s sales job in a day?
A sales clerk job is not just as simple as taking a sales order for a customer. If you have to use a system, some are simpler than others, like paper-based or excel-based rather than systems-based.
I’m generalizing here, but I think with my above example, becomes less of a matter of men versus women, and more of nuances in each company, and what they value each role to be worth.
While women may do the same job as a man in another area, it isn’t really the same knowledge in either job, even though their job roles may seem like it.
WHAT ABOUT COASTING AT THE AGE OF 40?
Do people coast?
I don’t know, I’m not 40 yet, but when you come to think of it, don’t companies tend to look down on people past a certain age?
It’s funny, really.
When you are too young, you don’t have enough experience.
When you are too old, you have too much damn experience.
Companies seem to like fresher, hungrier (cheaper) graduates, so I guess by the age of 40, your earnings would seemingly plateau while you coast into the golden years.
I think 40 is still plenty young. Even 50 is young.
I know people at 55 who are sharper and more quick witted than I can ever hope to be! 🙂 It seems like a darn shame to shuffle them off into the retirement pile so soon.
The good news, is that if my earnings really do peak at 40, then I have some solid years ahead of me, approximately 15 years of premium wage-earning on the horizon.
That is experience depicted in that photo up there, not age 😉
I can just imagine the father having done the same thing at this young buck’s age, hahaha!
AGE & YEARS ARE NOT THE SAME AS EXPERIENCE
Okay, so this is going to sound vain, but I really think that in the past 5 years, I have learned so much more than what my years might indicate.
Before you chuck rotten tomatoes at me and brush me off for being boastful, please understand that I am trying to be as tactful and diplomatic about it as possible.
I am not trying to put down anyone, I’m just trying to (as objectively as possible) say that age and years have nothing to do with experience.
Here are the reasons why I think that:
- I was lucky to be put on REALLY difficult projects early on in my career
- …and not for duties that weren’t part of my actual job, like fetching coffee
- I’ve consistently had awesome, high-curve learning projects in a row
- I actually want to grow, so I learn stuff I’m not supposed to really care about
- I didn’t just do a support role for companies — I am on actual projects
There are about 3 other people I know who have about the same experience as I do.
When I work with them, I could immediately see that they didn’t know as much as I did, simply because they hadn’t been on projects where they were forced to learn quickly and fall flat on their face repeatedly from the high learning curve (yes, that’s me!).
They were the ones who fetched coffee and weren’t allowed to learn how to do their job, so to speak.
So yes, they can put on their resume that they have the same experience as me, but it simply isn’t true.
Then I look at 2 other folks who have been in my job for about 8 years now.
They have been doing support for one client, and therefore haven’t actually been on any projects!!
Those people can say that they have more experience than me, but it simply isn’t true either; now all they know is that one client’s business, and when you don’t go on different projects you don’t remember or learn anything new, which is really boring and stifling.
It is also somewhat easier to support something that is already in place, tested and worked out, than something that is brand new and has never-been-done-before.
So even though I only have 5 years, I feel like the amount of knowledge in those 5 years spans closer to 8 or 10 of equivalent experience. Being forced into senior roles early on made me advance farther in my career, making all the mistakes (and still more to come) as a result.
That does it for my commentary.
It was a really interesting article for me, and the comments even more so. I highly recommend it.
Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver.
I cleared $60,000 in 18 months earning $65,000 gross/year.
Now I am self-employed, and you can read more about 
I agree that women tend to not ask for more money and are not savvy negotiators. However, this is NOT, I repeat NOT the cause of the wage gap. The wage gap exists b/c we live in a culture that values men over women…even when the women outperform the men.
One of my former coworkers (a woman) asked for more money and was basically sneered at by the HR rep, as if he couldn’t believe she felt she was worth more money. So, yes, women don’t ask, but when they do, they don’t always get it.
And yes, women do take time out to have kids, but you know what? Sometimes women leave the workforce not b/c they prefer to be a housewife or SAHM, but b/c the sexual harrassment in the workplace drives them out. Even if they report it and go through the proper channels, the men are not punished and the women feel the only way to maintain their sanity is to leave the job.
Sexism is alive and well in the workplace. Blaming women for being paid less is really uncool and shows a lack of understanding of the dynamics of sexism.
I’m assuming your former co-worker left, right? That’s what I’d do too. But
most women would stay in that position and feel beaten down to be sneered
at.
I’ve been yelled at, insulted and called many different names during
negotiations, but I always get my price because I either refuse to take the
project, stand my ground and/or don’t take it from them.
I wasn’t only blaming women for the problem.
I’m saying they’re PART of the problem and not helping it when they don’t
stand up for themselves… or when people say that everything can be
explained everywhere else but a woman should be held completely blameless
and an innocent bystander in all of this.
That’s utter BS.
I pretty much agree with the main points of your article. Women can have exactly what men have if they are willing to go for it.
I was the only woman for quite a while in an electronics marketing field. When I started I was in my 30’s and had never done it before, but felt that I was capable enough to learn and could be as good as the next guy with time and experience. I was willing to not be a weak and complaining woman, not make excuses because I had kids and had a husband willing to help. I worked for this company well into my 50’s before they closed down, and made more than what you are saying a man makes by age 38; that made me happy enough. I did get an education, over time, and took a lot of seminars to hone the skills that I felt were needed for optimum job performance.
So I say, if you want something bad enough, there are ways to get it or close to it if you look and try hard enough. Also, don’t expect everything to be handed to you, especially over night – it just doesn’t work that way. I am afraid that today’s generation and even yesterday’s generation has this way blown out sense of entitlement and an unreasonable sense of their skills, knowledge and capabilities; not to say they can’t acquire them.
Janet
Thanks for your viewpoint Janet. I read comments/stories like yours and it
makes me feel good that women like you paved the way for the rest of us 🙂
I definitely screwed up by selecting a low-paying profession: teaching. Ironically, the reason it may be low-paying is because it’s dominated by women. Now, we do ask for raises (through our union), but since our income is based on state funding, if the state says it’s broke – too bad for us. The job is immensely satisfying, but the pay just stinks. ;(
My parent who is a teacher says tne exact same thing!
Not that he screwed up but that the pay is low but satisfying.
I’ve never liked Penelope Trunk. I find she writes sweeping, blatant generalizations on controversial topics just for traffic’s sake. Her piece about how women don’t -really- want to be entrepreneurs because we prefer motherhood and blah blah blah was especially infuriating.
She is very aggressive (although I do see some of my personality in her but
I seem to have mellowed out over the blogging years), but I think some of
her points are worth repeating.
Not everything she says is what I agree with, but there’s truth in what
she’s saying, just if she’d tone it down a tad.
She’s controversial and it’s nice to hear the comments from both sides even
if I only agree with parts of both.
I think you’re far smarter than she is. She once tweeted about how she was miscarrying during a work meeting and also published all the details of her marital counseling sessions online. I just think there has to be a point when you’re considerate of the people around you and stop trying to get so much attention via shocking the hell out of your audience.
Well thank you.. but I should say that my attitude was not built over night,
that’s for sure 🙂
I do draw the line at talking about my life in such detail. Some dirty
laundry should be left to air inside the home.
I don’t know if I agree or not.. mainly because I’m a “put my head into sand” kind of person. If I don’t like something, I pretend it doesn’t exist for as long as I can.
Work place discrimination based on gender? I didn’t experience it. I mean, yes I did have some colleagues disregard my opinion because I was a girl, but it was not work related. More like, they tended to ignore me in casual conversations.
I’m unfortunately one of those who’s too shy to ask. I always second guess myself and think something like “what if I sound really rude… for asking for such an amount?”… so unless I am asked outright, I tend to avoid the issue.
Wow that “if I were a boy” article is really creepy. But interesting on the other hand.
I think a lot of us struggle with sounding “rude” or “bossy” or even
“greedy” when asking for more money, but if you’ve done your research and
it’s a fair wage, just take a deep breath and state that you want more money
calmly. 🙂
Oh my goodness, I love this post. (and Penelope Trunk’s blog!)
I have done everything except #3 & #5 (which I agree with and am working towards.)
Being female in a male-dominated industry allows you to be more aggressive and have it favorably looked upon, you are noticed more, and you can definitely get away with more. While that may sound unfair, it’s absolutely true, and given the amount of opportunities others have, I intend to use it to its fullest potential. 🙂
I do think women are stuck in more “support” or lower management roles, and that is something we need to break through – we do tend to not ask for more money when we have the opportunity to, for fear of being seen as “bitchy”, etc.
I say work with what you’ve got 🙂 As long as it doesn’t step over lines and
boundaries (lying, cheating, stealing) or hurts anyone (even mentally) it
sounds fine to me.
To Marcia’s point — I have to say that maybe we’re not “stuck” at lower
levels. Maybe we DON’T want to advance either. I know I don’t, but I’m one
of the few who doesn’t want to become a partner or go into upper management
for anything, if I worked for a company.
Well, I’m in a male-dominated industry (manufacturing). I tend to work for start-ups, where the pay sucks for everyone, but I also tend to be paid higher than my male counterparts. Not because I’m female, but because I’m a good engineer. I negotiate…a little bit. I’ve only negotiated once…but that’s out of 3 jobs.
Age: well, I got 2 raises in the last year (since turning 40), hopefully I’m not “done”! I can see where people coast. Most of my friends have 2 or 3 kids, and they are coasting. I was doing that for awhile too, and we’ve been considering a 2nd child (probably not gonna happen). As my son has gotten older though, I’ve stopped coasting. I’ve turned down a big management position but accepted a smaller one. It’s growing though (should have 2 more people by the end of the year). I am learning many new manufacturing skills that are missing in our company right now. Most people lean towards doing the things that they are comfortable with. It’s normal. I did that too during the baby/toddler years. But now I am pushing myself harder.
Child rearing is hard work, and I know that I had a couple of years of “Fog”…not my normal self. And even now, working harder and pushing, I can still only work 40-43 hrs/week, because I have to pick up my kid at school. I make them count, however. So when you see people bs’ing next to the water cooler or in their cubes…I’m pushing hard to get my work done so I can go home and do my second shift.
Older folks: we have been hiring a lot of older folks (50+). Some are great, some not-so-much. Sometimes we hired people for their experience and they end up not being capable. Sometimes we hire them for their experience and then we don’t listen to them (we are getting better at that – or *I* am – can’t speak for the other managers…) It’s really hard to be an engineer in your 50’s. You’re considered to be too old and creaky if you stay an engineer. If you constantly move up in your job into management, then you are soon overqualified. If you are willing to take a “lesser” job, then what’s wrong with you? Ugh.
You bring up a great point that I didn’t really touch on, but I’m the type
that doesn’t want to go into upper management. I want to (as you put it)
“coast” in my job. I don’t want to advance because I like my job and its
duties the way it is. Upper management is a lot about managing people and I
like it from a project perspective but not an HR-one.
(You’ve done really well for yourself, kudos on being such a hard worker and
great at your job)
Hmmm…a lot of traditionally female industries are doing better right now than their “male” counterparts, as America becomes more of a service economy and less of a manufacturing one. For example, mental health, physical therapy, nutrition, retail, recruiting (seems weird, but during tighter times, recruiting firms control a greater percent of jobs), things having to do with kids–those are growing more rapidly than male “manufacturing” jobs.
Interesting point. I wonder if in countries where there isn’t a lot of
manufacturing, if it’s more focused on traditionally-female industries?
I find the gender differences strange. Not in general, just in my personal life. My parents taught both my brother and I to be nice with lots of pleases and thank you’s. I WAS supposed to wear dresses, and like baby dolls, but from an early age I remember not wanting pig tails, or dresses or baby dolls and I would steal my brothers Legos so I could build things. LOL I Don’t know, maybe I am just the odd one out, but I am pretty aggressive in getting what I want. 🙂
I remember loving dresses and Barbies, but once the computer entered our
lives.. poof.. it’s all I could think about 🙂 Then I started playing RPGs
lol
LOL at her suggestion to “be a lawyer.” Now is a terrible time to be a recent law school graduate–high unemployment, outsourcing of legal jobs, rising cost of legal education,too many JDs being given out, etc. While the economy is partially to blame, some of these problems are probably here to stay.
When I read that post and read the comments where this reader pled with
everyone to not become a lawyer, I was inspired to write this post:
Are law schools a big scam –
http://fabbroke.wpengine.com/2011/02/are-law-schools-just-a-big-scam-students-are-graduating-but-not-able-to-find-jobs-let-alone-6-figure-salaries/
In both the initial article and your response, the issue of childbearing/rearing was glossed over. It’s not a small part of the wage gap. In fact, I’d wager it is the biggest issue facing women as a whole in their careers. And we’re paying for it on all sides, both at work, where we make less and are less respected, and in our persona lives, where we run the risk of waiting too long and not being able to have the children we want.
Grace you’re absolutely right, however I was just talking about Penelope’s
points which did not include childbearing/rearing.
I have touched on it before in my previous articles:
*Maternity in Sweden: Men have it all*
http://fabbroke.wpengine.com/2010/07/manternity-in-sweden-men-seem-to-have-it-all/
And here:
*For every 5 men who earn 6-figures, there’s one woman*
http://fabbroke.wpengine.com/2011/03/for-every-5-men-who-earn-a-6-figure-income-there-is-1-woman/
And I might add that my salary is way more than the average $61K for women at 38, so I guess I am not doing bad at all at 24.
You are doing FABULOUSLY! 🙂 Earning over $61k at 24 is nothing to sneeze
at. Congratulations on such a great salary.
There is a reason why men get paid more than women. It is not because men are smarter than women, some will argue that of course but these days, women are getting higher degrees more than men, but that could also be a population issue; there are more women than men. But the issue here is why women are being ignored even in the 21st century. Or should I say under-valued. Men are more likely to be offerred a better salary than females and that is because employers believe that a man is more productive than a woman. Men are also better negotiators, infact a man is four times more likely to negotiate their pay than a woman. A woman is more emotionally connected to a job than financially dependent. Women love harmony and negotiating your pay seems to be seen as a source of conflict between themselves and their employers. Most women would rather have their job speak for itself than demand for a raise. For regular folks like me who only make enough to get by, negotiating our pay especially when you consider yourself lucky enough to have a job might not be the best thing to do.
But I still think women should start negotiating their pay and raising awareness about this issues especially where they smell discrepancies
Those are all excellent points.
I didn’t know there were more women than men in the world.
Is that taking into account that women live longer and therefore when
everyone retires at 65, there is more likely to be women?
I read Penelope’s thing a while back and couldn’t agree more with her. I’m 34 and have worked in a male dominated industry, finance, ever since I got out of college.
@Fabulously, one thing that struck me is when you say: “Okay, so this is going to sound vain, but I really think that in the past 5 years, I have learned so much more than what my years might indicate.
Before you chuck rotten tomatoes at me and brush me off for being boastful, please understand that I am trying to be as tactful and diplomatic about it as possible.
I am not trying to put down anyone, I’m just trying to (as objectively as possible) say that age and years have nothing to do with experience.”
I hate to point out the obvious, but this is one of the main reasons too why we’re paid less, “women love harmony” as Working Mom Journal states. We’re constantly apologizing for being too aggressive or boasting a little. It even comes out in our writing….we say things like “I think we should do this” instead of “here’s what we need to do!”
I catch myself *all the time* before I send emails off to colleagues (male colleagues), because obviously it’s what I think since I’m writing it so I don’t need a disclaimer.
Anyway….it’s just interesting. I’ve trained myself to be a little more punchy, because that’s what I’ve had to do at work so I’m not pushed around….but this is just one (our communication style and apologetic nature) of the “controllable” reasons why we’re paid less.
My point is you sound like you’re doing very well in your career and you should be proud of it, so let people throw tomatoes at you if they want, they’re lame if they do and you can laugh at them all the way to the bank!!
You are totally right Kathryn that I put myself down a lot and am
self-deprecating.. but it’s an instinctive thing mostly for the sake of the
blog.
I do that because I know it is hard to see my face when I am saying these
things (writing?) and people tend to take my words in the wrong light if I
don’t really emphasize my true meaning and clarify as much as I can.
I don’t want any misunderstandings and I truly don’t want people to take my
words in the wrong light.
I see exactly what you mean and if it helps any, in real life, I don’t do
that.
I just tell them like it is, mostly using phrases along the line of: *I know
my job, please do yours*, when I get any BS coming back to me. I don’t
apologize or clarify to the extent that I do on the blog.
Thank you 🙂 And KUDOS!
Women definitely need to negotiate more. However, I’ve read about studies showing that women who are more assertive and negotiate can be seen in a negative light! In other words, it can be a lose-lose proposition. Men, on the other hand, are seen more favorably when they’re assertive.
I also think that society values and rewards certain professions because men do gravitate toward them and de-values ones where women go. So if any profession, with possibe exception of medicine, suddenly became 60-70% female, the value of that profession would fall.
I was planning to write about this and link to the Brazen Careerist post, because it generated interesting points. It’s also an important point for women who opt out of the workforce to consider. Most of my SAH friends only considered their current salary when they opted out in their early 30s; when they try to return to work in their mid to late 30s, no one wants to hire them and they missed out on their prime earning years.
That is a really interesting point about women’s professions being devalued.
I’d love to see studies on it or to read more about it. I never thought
about that being a factor.
Write about it and let me know when it’s up. I’d love to read it.
As someone who does negotiate (hard) who is not only a female but YOUNG, I
do agree that it hurts my reputation and image… but they get over it 🙂
Sooner or later.
Besides, they know it’s money and I’d rather the cash be in mine 😛
It’s a fine line to walk… and I can dish it out as good as I get it.
While I get the practical rationale of the whole “go where the men are” idea, it continues to irk me on a deeper level. It’s a bigger societal issue that the jobs men tend to gravitate towards (or are encouraged subtley and otherwise, to pursue) are more highly valued than those jobs that women tend to choose. Theoretically, I had the IQ and academic ability to do a variety of jobs, some more “male-oriented”, but my interests and strengths leaned toward a more “female oriented” profession. It’s a tricky chicken/egg issue in my mind-are the positions devalued because women do them more, or are women just “choosing” lesser valued positions (and I put choosing in quotes, because there are many issues that go into a “choice” including how much opportunity a person is given to pursue various avenues)?
Ohhh great point!
Another industry that is quite odd is the culinary one.
It’s strange how as a society we think that women should be in the kitchen
cooking, when in fact the top chefs of the world are men!
And many women chefs talk about how hard it is to be a woman in the kitchen.
Have to go where your interests lie for sure, but it might have been more of
a suggestion to broaden your search than to stick to socially-accepted roles
and jobs for women. However, if you love it, why not go for it?
It’d be the same thing as men saying they want to be nurses, not doctors
because they see and enjoy the job as it is, yet many people might give them
the eye like — “a nurse? why not a doctor?”
[OK, I am really generalizing here…]
I can imagine that a restaurant (and not just that of a top chef) is a more masculine environment, with stressful working conditions and the pressure to always perform well. Maybe, as with salary negotations and just asking for more money, women have never been “primed” for this kind of job/environment/situation. Young girls are “taught” to “care” from a very early age on. Look at toy catalogues, where there are pink toy ironing boards, pink toy vacuumers, (pink) toy kitchens, and so on, for the girls; and cars, guns, etc. for the boys.
I am not saying women can’t do these jobs, but the roles that “society” has assigned the boys/men and the girls/women can be quite persistent, not only in the minds of women, but also in the men’s minds as well.
That’s true.
For me, it’s just that I find it odd that in the culinary industry
specifically with COOKING, it seems like the men are “pros” and the women
are only good as “stay-at-home cooks”.. Or maybe it’s all in my head. 🙂
Women in general are definitely not taught to fight (negotiate) or to look
out for themselves. My parents really tried to enforce that “nice” behaviour
in me as a girl, but never tried to do that to my brothers.
Cooking in a restaurant is very different from home cooking. Cooking in a large restaurant is extremely labor-intensive–lots of heavy lifting of giant boxes, drums, etc. of ingredients, working with machinery, etc. Frankly, it’s a lot like typically “male” factory work.
True. It’s hardcore cooking but women are up for the challenge. I’m seeing a
lot more women chefs on shows like Top Chef which is nice.. it’s showing
that you can’t just tell a woman — look you’re a chick, get out of this
kitchen.
At least let them prove themselves!
I kind of disagree with the point of “go where the men are”. My girlfriend works as a chartered accountant, where over 75% of management are women, all making mid-six figures. They’re doing unbelievably well for themselves, yet it’s a women-dominated company (and industry from my view). Just my two cents I suppose.
That’s the CA offices of today Dan – when I articled 20 years ago, there was 0 female partners out of about 40 total. And very few senior managers that were women – actually none now that I think about it. A few managers that were women though – but that could be because the expectation was there to sacrifice your life for the job and play the face time game. It’s become a more normal environment I think.
I was just going to reference Jacq for this one too. She wrote a fabulous
post for the If I were a Boy series where she talks specifically about how
different the accounting offices were back then.
http://singlemomrichmom.com/if-i-were-a-boy-retro/
Eh, there is definitely a need to negotiate more. In my experience at university, some people revel in being incredibly subtle. Thus, they don’t ask for things – they think it should just be granted to them. Not that they don’t work hard, but they think that if it’s obvious they’re working hard (or having difficulty) their fairy godmother person should step in and reward/help them as needed.
Whereas some of my less subtle friends (myself included) just ask for what we want/need/believe we deserve.
At the very least, our forwardness makes it awkward for the person we’re asking to refuse 😀