As a society we all assume that lawyers make a lot of money, no?
But when I hear from readers who are lawyers, and read other law blogs on occasion, I’ve noticed a trend about how it isn’t what they expected.
Not to single out Paying Myself, but I read her blog posts a while back and was both surprised and enlightened, and I really want to share them with you.
She does consider herself lucky to be a lawyer but acknowledges that it isn’t all roses:
I’m a lawyer. I thought I was supposed to be rich. I’m only half kidding when I say my first idea of being a lawyer came as a child when the occupation of “lawyer” made the most money in The Game of Life (I loved that game). And it’s not just me – it’s the rest of the world. Everyone thinks lawyers are rich.
But we’re not. At least I’m not.
POST: I thought I was supposed to be rich— Paying Myself
And even in a more recent post of hers:
I was one of the lucky ones – I found work after only a few months of searching, and I found exactly what I was looking for – a set up where I am essentially a “sole practitioner”, practicing in an area of the law that I love (the majority of the time anyway) and that I feel passionate about (most of the time at least).
But I wasn’t one of the super lucky ones.
I’ve had to make a few sacrifices.
I don’t have benefits, my own assistant to do all my administrative work (though we do have one amazing co-worker who does a lot of the hard stuff), a steady salary, a fancy office, or any guaranteed clients.
I have to pay a lot of mine own expenses, including insurance, professional fees and ongoing education.
Some months I make a lot of money, and some months I make less. I’ve found a job that I love but I can’t always pay myself generously.
POST: Passion Versus Money — Paying Myself
Before her posts, I had no idea that being a lawyer was not profitable.
To me, the little FB many years ago thought the holy triumvirate of high paying jobs were: Doctor, Lawyer, CEO.
In Penelope Trunk’s post on why salaries plateau at 40, someone wrote a comment pleading others to NOT become a lawyer:
So when I came across this New York Times article entitled: For Law School Graduates, Debts if Not Job Offers – Is Law School a Losing Game, I was fascinated.
Here are the main summary headlines of what I gleaned from the article, in my words.
All the text in bolded dark blue is from the article, and may have been re-arranged for clarity.
There’s an oversupply of new law school graduates and a lack of demand
Since 2008, some 15,000 attorney and legal-staff jobs at large firms have vanished, according to a Northwestern Law study.
Law schools are a business
Many schools, even those that have failed to break into the U.S. News top 40, state that the median starting salary of graduates in the private sector is $160,000.
That seems highly unlikely, given that Harvard and Yale, at the top of the pile, list the exact same figure.
How do law schools depict a feast amid so much famine?
…..a law grad, for instance, counts as “employed after nine months” even if he or she has a job that doesn’t require a law degree. Waiting tables at Applebee’s? You’re employed.
…but we’re all bright-eyed, bushy-tailed optimists
Apparently, there is no shortage of 22-year-olds who think that law school is the perfect place to wait out a lousy economy and the gasoline that fuels this system — federally backed student loans — is still widely available.
Everyone assumes they’ll make a ton of money, and they spend it before they even graduate!
This is definitely not just a “law school thing”, because I know plenty of people who went to college, only to imagine that once they graduated, they’d make enough to pay back their loans in no time.
Not so.
Or how about people who are working now? Many people spend before they have the money, which is why debt is such a hot topic these days.
It’s a “way of life” for many.
It’s a prestige thing, but status doesn’t pay the bills
MR. WALLERSTEIN, for his part, is not complaining.
“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.”
Just … yeah.
I can’t imagine going into a quarter of a million dollars in debt for prestige, or status like he has.
But I suppose many people do that.
Think about it: there are a lot of blue collar jobs out there that pay a decent salary without requiring higher education, but because those jobs aren’t sexy, no one wants to go into them.
We all go to college, even for degrees we don’t really know what to do with afterwards.
As a kid, I never heard anyone say to me: I want to be a crane operator on a construction site!
We all wanted to be in white collar jobs that hold prestige and status in our society as being respected, highly-paid and desirable.
I would like to point out that I am aware that making a lot of money doesn’t mean you’re rich. Wealth is simply money saved.
If you don’t save anything, you don’t have any wealth.
So whether you make a lot of money, or very little, but you don’t bank it, it’s pointless to discuss how “wealthy” you are.
Your income is not your “wealth”.
Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver.
I cleared $60,000 in 18 months earning $65,000 gross/year.
Now I am self-employed, and you can read more about 
Yes. I gradutated from law school 6 years ago and the market was completely saturated then. Now, it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. In my small state, Washington, there are three law schools pumping out more lawyers than ever. There are NO jobs. No one from the bottom two schools stands a chance at even getting an interview. What is worse, is that there educational loans are leaving them with mortgage sized debt, without the mortgage. Going to law school is a huge mistake and it will take a generation before there is, once again, a sustainable market for lawyers.
So what should newly graduated, unemployed attorneys do? What are your thoughts on going to business school? Just more debt, or maybe worth it?
I’m not an attorney, so I cannot really speak to its intricacies. I hear
from some people that certain parts of law pay well, while others don’t.
It’s research someone should do to figure out what they like to do and what
they can reasonably earn from that job to pay their loans in a reasonable
timeframe.
As for going to business school, I went, so I think it was worth it for me.
A business degree is a good general degree but it is so broad you could end
up working at a fast food chain as a manager, or the CEO of a corporation.
It all depends.
Business schools have varying levels of employment quality as well. Sad to
say, but true. Getting a business degree at night school at a local
community college or by mail order will probably not land you a good job
right out of the gate as if you go to a more prestigious ones. And more
prestigious schools cost more *sigh*
More prestigious schools are not necessarily always better, but they
definitely have more alumni contacts that can get you those better jobs and
alumni and companies that come to specifically recruit at those schools over
others. That’s where the leg up comes in and where your money goes in the
tuition.
Regardless it all depends on what you are planning to do afterwards with
that degree. If you don’t know, then you’re wasting money without a rough
plan of where you want to go. You don’t always have to stick to that plan,
but you have to have an idea, or a starting point that makes sense.
I am also not sold that everything should be based on salary, it should be
based more on what you like to do (finding a range), and then looking for a
range of jobs within those sets of interests to find what pays the best.
Before law school, I worked as a paralegal. Now that I’ve graduated from law school,I’m finding no entry level attorney positions so I’m applying to be a paralegal in the hopes that it will lead to an attorney job. Feels like I wasted 3 years and $150,000.
There are pros and cons to every career. There seems to be no perfect career and even good careers have their bad moments. Many people seem to benefit from going to college but it doesn’t mean that college is a guarantee. I couldn’t go into a career just for the prestige, because prestige is based on what society thinks rather than what you think about the career and what you as an individual find enjoyable. Licensed professions seem to be filled with bureaucracy. I feel sorry for law students.
I do think think that colleges in general have become more expensive. In the 60s people could work their way through college, now its become almost impossible to do that. People usually take longer to finish their degrees because college has become more expensive. A lot of people are questioning the validity and cost of college. I honestly don’t blame them for doing so.
No I do not. Thinking that you are scammed if you don’t get a 6 figure salary when you graduate shows how entitled these people think they are. Just because you graduate from some school doesn’t guaranty anything. And a median salary is higher than 50% of the students will get.
I wouldn’t be amazed if law schools try and paint a nice picture for prospective students. I would imagine most of those students try and make themselves look good in their applications. A scam is much different from choosing to highlight what puts you in a good light. Those for-profit schools taking unqualified students to take government money are scams. I suppose some law schools may reach the level of scams (I don’t know and doubt it but could be wrong) but most are not scams. Not being a scam doesn’t mean it is a wise more.
Lots of lawyers graduating are making over $100,000 a year a few years later. Crying about being scammed when lots of people make it successfully is weak.
Great comment!
Basically, people know what they’re getting into and they shouldn’t imagine otherwise if they haven’t done their research?
I think a lot of colleges do set out to do a little false marketing by posting rosy numbers that aren’t reality.
Not everyone who goes to a business school for example, makes good money. I had friends who started at $30,000 a year.
This post really hits home for me. I always planned on going to law school (two B.A. degrees in Pre-Law and English, a Paralegal Certificate, and some paralegal work experience), but by the time I graduated with my dual degrees (they took me 5 years to attain all together), I had realized something: there is no market for new attorneys. So, I put going to law school on hold, hoping the supply and demand would change a bit as older Baby Boomers began to retire. Now, I use my skills to work online as a freelance writer and virtual paralegal. The feeling of loss for not getting to go to law school remains, but I know I would be more miserable with a law degree, huge loans, and no way out of debt. ____I'm glad you posted this.
A virtual paralegal? That sounds interesting. Is there a good market there?
I’m sorry you didn’t go to law school but whatever decision you make for yourself will ultimately be your decision at least. Not someone elses.
This hits so close to home that it took me a while to comment. The law schools saw a business opportunity and exploited it. I wouldn't say people are getting scammed by them. They are doing what all great businesses do – selling an experience.
I finished law school in the noughties so I know that conveyor belt, commercialized world very well. I did three years in a law firm too. When I was in law school, I was frustrated at the number of graduates that didn't secure jobs with law firms after law school. I thought it was grossly unfair.
Then, whilst in private practice, I realized that there is a reason for all of that – in order to excel the legal marketplace, you have to stand out. You can be the most intelligent, the most street-smart or have the best connections, pick one. Bottom line is you must bring something to the table. In addition and above all else, you must love the law because:
1. the pay won't make up for the long hours and poor quality of life (if you are in a good firm making good money); or
2. the title won't make up for all the money you spent (if your job doesn't pay as well).
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I love your comment! This is such a refreshing viewpoint. Thanks for writing in.
It's been this way for years with lawyers. Law schools are not scamming these individuals. They just have to be aware of way the market holds for them. To do over again, I would have waited before completing my MBA.
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I want to be a crane operator on a construction site!!!
Seriously, that's where the money is (and I found running equipment on construction sites to be a lot of fun actually). Engineering is going the same way as law right now. More new grads, fewer jobs, and the when taking inflation into account pay has been steadily decreasing. Not cool.
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This is so interesting. The idea of the rich lawyer is so ingrained in society. I imagine there is a lot of "Keeping Up with the Joneses" in a proffesion such a law e.g not wanting to park a beat up old car in your firms car park, buying a home in a rich neighbourhood, and this is just going to add to their debt. I think the law schools have a lot to answer for. They should not be promising their students a future that a lot of them will not be able to reach.
Siobhan
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I would add that in America, medical and dental professions are becoming less an less of the money making professions that people seem to assume they are. I had been assured that I was heading into the right profession when I entered dentistry. "You are in the best profession in the world" I was told. And, I inferred , dentists are rich moneybags right? I mean, if I'm paying $500 for a crown, I am probably sending my dentist's kids to college AND a cruise to the Bahamas 😉
The reality hit when my classmates and I started crunching the numbers. Ours was around $200,000 (at 7% or 8% interest) for the tuition alone that was non-negotiable. At some schools it can easily run into $300, 400K. I tried living frugally, but with the tuition starting out at that number, it is hard to keep the level of debt down. Those student loans will be around $2,000 a month minimum.
I know that my medical school friends are in the same boat. Saddled with debt, forced to do mandatory residencies and taking on even more debt, and with interest rates and tuition costs rising exponentially, the future of becoming a medical doctor or dentist is looking less financially favorable. You might be better off going into another profession if you're only looking for the money!
I am continuing in my profession because I like working with my hands, and I like helping people, and I love the work that I do. Yet, I tell anyone applying to dental school or medical school that if they are doing it only for the money or the glamorous lifestyle that they might want to rethink their plans.
Here, lawyers and notaries make a decent amount of money, however in order to be able to get a decent job (after finishing college, there's a 6 year training period) they need t have connections. And let's face it, how many of the graduates do have that here?
Ok, I'm not a lawyer, and maybe that's a cynical view of things, but a lot of law school graduates are complaining that they can't find a job, and end up working below their "level" (eg: cashiers are large retail stores). So yep, right now, I don't think that lawyers are in high demand, and unless one's really passionate about it/has a mom, dad,uncle working in the industry, I wouldn't recommend it.
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I've never wanted to be a doctor or lawyer but I feel sorry for the people that go to medicine or law school, graduate and can't find jobs. I read last year about a doctor who is 500k in debt. I was like wow. Yeah I too read that article on the NY Times when it first came out. I think one of those guys they interviewed was really full of himself. I realize not all law school graduates are that way.
This brings up another interesting point, I've been thinking for quite a while that too many people go to college. My bf a few weeks ago was saying how the blue collar jobs are the "new white collar jobs" because they pay as much as white collar jobs except that not that many people want to work at blue collar jobs. IMO I think all colleges are a business, they're all there to make money, a lot of them don't care if you drop out or not, but they do care if they get their paychecks.
IMO I think the college bubble is already happening. I've tried to avoid student loans as much as possible because of the horror stories I've heard from friends, online blogs, etc. Anyway I'm going to shut up now, 😉
In terms of job security, med students are in a MUCH better boat than lawyers because the AMA limits the number of MDs by strictly limiting the number of accredited medical schools and the number of spots per class. As a result, medical schools have an extremely low dropout rates compared to law schools, and almost every student gets placed in a residency upon graduation (not necessarily their first choice or location, but its still a placement). Pass rates for the boards are very high as well..95 percent for US med school grads. Yes, medical school is expensive and getting in is hard, but at least once you get in, your chances of being a practicing physician are very, very high. There's a joke that goes "What do you call the student at the bottom of his med school class? Doctor." On the other hand, law is a different beast altogether. While it's easier to get in, there are so many more law schools, and at some lower-tier ones, the dropout rates are ridiculously high–a huge chunk of the class leaves. Further, many students ultimately have trouble passing the bar.
Well, my son is thinking about law school–but we've read all those articles. So…make sure to do well on LSATs (this is son's strong area–standardized tests), opt for a state school (with in-state tuition); live like a student. I would be wary of private schools in general–unless you are talking about the very prestigious ones.
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I don't know many friends who have graduated from law school, so I can't comment on that front. I do think that a lawyer is a "prestigous" career, I think that the media plays a big role is idolizing careers, such as law, and medicine. Maybe many young people see law school as a ticket to a wealthy life style, and don't think about the reality of competition afterward and repayment of the school loans.
Going to law school only makes sense if you go to a REALLY GOOD law school. You need a name that opens doors, and most don't. Not to sound like a snob, but most JD students are wasting their money and haven't thought the decision through.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a scam, but law schools definitely are businesses, very profitable and competitive businesses that all strive after one model of success: the Harvard model. That is, super competitive enrollment stats, up towards 40K per year in tuition, and pumping out attorneys working for corporate law firms working 10 hours per day, 6 days per week, AT A MINIMUM, and get paid 6 figures first year of call.
The fact that most students never make it to the corporate law world and the fact that there are careers outside of it are not really discussed with students. and the fact that some people, despite willingness and effort, may not even become lawyers, is never brought up. Yet it exists, just ask for law school's career centre stats.
I think it's a crime of two parties: young, inexperienced students entering the field with the traditional "corporate lawyer" as their only aspiration, and law schools that happily profit off them by increasing enrollment, tuition fees, and hiding the fact that their tuition fees may not be worth it unless students make it into the rat race.
Kevin – that is incorrect. You can be an IP lawyer without an engineering undergrad, at least in the few jurisdictions i'm familiar with.
I think the issues in the US and the issues in Canada are fairly different. There is definitely an oversupply issue in the US. That said, Canadian law schools constantly increase enrollment so we may end up in the same predicament. For now, it isn't that there aren't jobs out there, or opportunities to make a living, I think its more than the traditional, highly coveted and well-paying positions are in short supply. It seems like 90% of law school students go in with dreams of high powered jobs on Bay Street that pay well. Those jobs do exist, and they are grueling btw, but there are more eager students than jobs available. Students also tend to take on loans as if landing one of those coveted jobs was a foregone conclusion.
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Wow, that's insane! I didn't know all this..
Of course, I had read Paying Myselfs posts on this, & I Have a law teacher who isn't a lawyer, he's a teacher – nuff' said – but that's so crazy!
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This is a very broad generalization. There is one field of law that is growing and needs more lawyers. IP (Intellectual Property, or Patent) Law needs more people. Why? Because you can only be an IP lawyer if you have an engineering undergraduate degree.
If people knew they wanted to be lawyers at 18, then they should get an engineering degree and they won't have trouble getting a job.
I know so many people who went to law school because they didn't know what they wanted to do after college, so they used law school as a way to put off the decision for 3 more years. It's not surprising to me that these people don't have jobs.
Furthermore, there aren't many Harvard or Stanford lawyers unemployed. When I was thinking about law school, I read the same thing over and over; go to a top 15 school OR graduate in the top 5% of a lesser school and you'll get a great job when you graduate. If you don't do one of those two things, then you're probably gonna be poor.
The information wasn't hard to find. I don't really feel bad for people who had this information readily available to them and decided to spend tons of money on a JD anyway.
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Not only can you be an IP lawyer with an engineering undergrad, as pointed out by @Carly above, it's hardly a growing industry. LIke every other area of law, it's taken a hit lately. Take my partner, who has been sitting at home for almost a year without work. He has an engineering undergrad and articled with a big name IP firm. He's had one interview – for the only IP position that was hiring for a new lawyer with no experience post-call. If it is a growing industry, it's not growing here.
As with many industries, getting that initial foot in the door can be really hard. I do seem to notice that there are more IP jobs than some other areas of law, but its typically for 2-3+ year calls. Makes it really hard for a first year!
Bottom line is that prospective law students need to hit the pavement and talk to some lawyers. Find out the real salary expectations and the real types of jobs available. There are lots of opportunities to take over for retiring lawyers in the coming years – but mostly for sole practitioners and small firms in smaller communities. Rewarding work and fairly profitable, but it has to be what you want.
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You don't need an engineering undergrad to be an IP lawyer.
career centres count "waitressing" or working in retail as employed. So the fact that a low percentage of the grads are unemployed after graduation doesn't necessarily lend to the conclusion that most of these grads are HAPPILY employed.
It is NEVER a guarantee that law grads will get a high-paying job. Even if you make it to the top schools AND get really great grades, you still need to pull off the interviews. Sound easy right? Until you realize you're competing with at least 50 other students who have just as good marks, and come from equally prestiqeous schools. All of these students are bright, have GREAT extra curicullars and other connections, and they've all practiced the art of impressing their way though interviews.
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I read that same article a few months back and I can't say that I have any real world experience in what they were saying (my few friends that have JDs got jobs around here pretty easily) But I do think it's complete crap that thy can state that are allowed to state that "so much of a percentage of our law school grads have a job after 9 months" but it isn't based on those that have jobs in the law field.
And a starting salary of $160,000?!? Really? Some lawyers work years and never make that much!
Not that kids shouldn't do a little more research into this on their own, but the fact that schools are legally allowed to state unrealistic facts like this is ridiculous!
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Wouldn't surprise me in the least! But it wouldn't just be law schools. Over here in England students pay (and the taxpayers) good money for degrees like 'Media studies' or 'American studies' to get jobs as secretaries when nothing else pans out. Some folks over here see the university years away from home as a rite of passage, an experience no teenager can morph into an adult without. It's not just about education, but more about moving away and partying. Bills? That's what student loans are for. I think it's all insane, but then I did my university degress the boring way: living at home and then in night school. Mind, I can't pretend to know what young people entering the work place need in order to succeed; it's a mixed up world compared to when I was in that position. I'm thinking frugality is always a better bet, though, than splashing out and racking up debt in the name of 'education' which may or may not give a return to pay that debt.
As a student, that stereotype of English students doing nothing but partying really gets on my nerves. I'm in England *and * I'm a law student. And I'm on a pretty strict budget that I put myself on as part of my five year plan – I'm not living la vie facile now, but it means that when I graduate, less loans to pay off.
The opportunities in the legal sector are looking pretty grim right now, and they told us from first year that the illusion of the rich lawyer was just that – an illusion. But by then, it was kind of too late for many people. Personally, I'm looking for teaching jobs abroad, because I know a lot of my peers won't be looking there because they won't have the linguistic expertise or motivation to go abroad. The way I see it, having a lower paying job is better than having no job at all.
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There’s a stereotype where English students are partiers!?
I thought that was more American / Canadian students. :\ I guess to each their own stereotype.
I never thought that English students would be party animals. My misconception is how proper everyone seemed to be there partly because of your wonderful accent.
I think your glass half full perspective is also refreshing.