Out of curiousity, I asked my family member if going to school, getting her PhD and all that education was worth it in the end.
She hesitated (not a good sign).
Then she replied:
Well I make $110k/year.I also have a flexible schedule and I don’t work like I used to.
So I guess it must be worth it.
It just seemed like such a long time to get my degree though, and I am still paying off my loans.
I let it go at that point. I know she finds her job boring, but I was curious as to whether the shorter hours, bigger paycheque made up for it all.
She only confirmed what I had felt all along: if you don’t love what you do 90% of the time, you will always feel wishy-washy about your job, and slightly unhappy.
A while back, I came across this post card from Post Secret:
Granted, I don’t know about this person’s situation to comment on it, but I wonder if earning more than $30,000 a year, working 70 hours a week would make them happy.
Do they hate their jobs, hate the lack of money, or both?
I wonder what the motivation is for people to decide to get their PhDs in their respective subjects.
Is it because they want to work towards that actual role of being a professor, assistant professor and to conduct all that research?
If so, then loving the job but wishing you had more money is something I can understand. I would do my job even if it paid 4x less — it is that interesting!
I feel like my family member got into the job because she didn’t know what else she wanted to do.
She was hog-tied, career-wise and it only seemed logical to follow this discipline until the end, considering that it was the one in the most demand (seeing as it is horribly boring, and no one wanted to do it) and joked she would be a lifetime student.
Even for undergraduates: why do people choose the disciplines they do?
I think the same principle applies when you decide to go to college for an undergraduate. I went into something I found interesting: business and ended up by accident doing what I love and making decent dough.
However that doesn’t mean someone who finds anthropology, history or computer science interesting will end up in a job they love.
So what do those people do? How do they find what they love if what they love doesn’t have a job, a role or a demand out there for them?
They all say that someone with a college degree earns more than a high school graduate (something like $15,000 more), but are they really looking at it from a discipline-by-discipline perspective and accounting for all the variables such as job demand, and so on?
If not, then numbers from engineers or investment bankers will skew the average earnings up far above the rest.
Then you look at this chart (click on it to make it larger) from Chronicle that asks: Why did 17 million students go to college?
I wish there were correlating statistics on what undergrad they took.
Over 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees (over 8,000 of them have doctoral or professional degrees), along with over 80,000 bartenders, and over 18,000parking lot attendants. All told, some 17,000,000 Americans with college degrees are doing jobs that the BLS says require less than the skill levels associated with a bachelor’s degree.
I am guessing all that debt wasn’t worth it, and with rising student loan numbers, it seems like a waste of time. There’s always the possibility to work part-time or study part-time to try having less debt, but then it takes even more time to get a degree. In the late years, many are turning to online courses from accredited colleges, like NDNU Online, so they can work full-time while earning their degree. I wonder if they find their courses as much interesting as the ones given in classes though.
That being said, I love that I got my degree and I’m happy I did. It’s certainly paid off, but am I the norm, or one in a hundred?
All very interesting questions.
EXTRA READING
- Education is a Consumer Item (Charlie’s Blog)
- Why I went to college and why you shouldn’t (PF Firewall)
- There are 5000 janitors in the U.S. with PhDs (Gizmodo)
- The Undermployed College Graduate (College Affordability)
Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver.
I cleared $60,000 in 18 months earning $65,000 gross/year.
Now I am self-employed, and you can read more about 
I went to college and earned two bachelors degrees. One in Anthropology and the other in Biology and I graduated in 2007. However, I work in customer service and I feel that I am getting dumber by the day. The job has opened my eyes to all the naive truisms I as taught as a child. I have worked at this job now 38 months and I still don’t have any job security nor are there any openings in either of my fields. What a mouth full!
I got my undergrad in education and became a high school teacher; I loved teaching foreign language. But I made a heart decision to quit teaching for a season and become a stay at home mom.
In my state, with the economy as it is, each school district is letting teachers go, and cutting salaries. There is no way I can return from being a stay at home mom (now a single mom…long story) to teaching since the schools aren’t hiring.
So I’m returning to get my masters degree in an area in which I have great aptitude, in which I have a great desire to pursue a career, and for which there is an increasing need for qualified (read “master’s level college graduate”) employees. I know, I checked the occupational outlook for this new career, and it’s solid. I will take out 5-figure student loans for the two year masters degree, but the increase in lifetime earnings OVER what I would have earned as a teacher, is around $500,000. Minimum.
I am making a heart decision again, but this time it’s also an amazing financial one.
I’m loving your blog, by the way!
It really depends. Some people have complained that college wasn’t worth it to them. Others like J.Money from Budgets are Sexy say it was worth it to them because they wouldn’t have had the opportunities they had. I think its one of those things that people have to do for themselves to find out if its going to be worth it to them.
I will say that I think most people need some training beyond high school whether its an apprenticeship, on the job training, community college, or university, or self-learning, etc. In a complex world it helps if a person is constantly learning. A lot of people get pressured by family, friends, etc. So they go to college.
In the U.S. only 30% of people have a 4 college degree and that’s not a lot. Many people drop out and don’t graduate. People go to college, find out its not for them and decide to do something else. Interestingly 50% of people have an associate degree and 80% have a high school diploma.
I think what happens is that people go to a 4 year college, don’t like it but they might like a program or trade at their community college and the community college, at cc you can spend $4k to get a 2 year degree. Even if a person goes to cc and transfers to a 4 year, those last two years is expensive compared to cc. So some people probably are better off studying at cc than at uni.
I also think colleges are a little too traditional and focused on a old college model. Liberal arts degrees were great when our grandparents went to college, but more employers want specific skills and less broad degrees. In my graphic design program they’re still focusing on print design, in the real world graphic design is moving towards a more web based experience such as web design, animation, etc.
My bf’s dad is a programmer so my bf used to borrow his dads books to learn how to program and he is working as a programmer right now. My bf is the type of guy who is self-motivated and is constantly learning about different things. Unfortunately the lack of degree is holding him back from further advancement at the company. So he went back to college to get a degree.
Also some experts are saying smart kids will make it with or without college. I kind of agree with that but then again it depends on the industry. In the arts world it helps to have a degree because companies like Pixar and Disney screen their applicants that way, but your portfolio is what will get you the job.
Having a degree (no matter how silly it might be, seeing as your skills are stellar to begin with), is the way employers filter out candidates.
I think college in the end was worth it for me, or else I’d never have gotten into what I did, but for others, I can see it was a bad choice as they were peer-pressured or forced to go to college by their parents without a clear goal..
I went to college because it was expected of me. I didn't even contemplate the idea of not going to college, it was that much etched in stone for my life path. But I am glad I went. I feel like I grew (in a good way) as a person from going to college. I can't imagine how I would be if I was to live without going to college (especially since I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life). Yeah, so I got a degree in Psychology, something that was very interesting but I didn't want a career in. You can say I was pretty lost in what I wanted to do. I think with me, if I was to do the stuff I enjoyed as a career I would have a pretty poor financial life. If everyone did what their hearts desire, I think we would have a lot more free spirited. That's why although the career I chosen can be seen as boring by some, I find it (somewhat) interesting and entertaining. But I know that people get burnt out and I believe that you need a hobbies to keep you sane and not be a miserable working person.
sorry – more ranting,
I love my family and all, but you know there are times I wish I was not born into this family. I am in my early 30s, the younges, yet my siblings always want to borrow money from me. I make a good salary, but that does not mean I have to help everyone in the family GOD!!!! From now on, I will lie about how much I make.
I am glad I did NOT go for higher education such as master or cpa. What's the point when I make more money, and my older siblings always looking to borrow money to start a business or buy a house. I am sorry they did not have the opportunities that I did . I also studied hard and worked hard to get to where I am, it's not like I got money from my parents or brothers for college. I got a scholarship and student loans to pay for my education.
I am thinking about moving as far away from my family as possible starting next year.
Rant away.
I have the same feelings as you do, although it\’s easier knowing that my siblings are around the same range as I am. I just feel like they expect more money out of me for some reason.
I went to college because of my family. I've lived for my family, and it's time I change and live for myself.
My brothers did not have the opportunities I had, and especially one close brother reminded me everyday during my teenage years. I appreciate the fact that my close brother pushed me to study hard, but I feel like it was not fair that they put the burden on me to finish college. I got scholarship, so I did not depend on a penny from my family. Still I would have gone to college on my own, but on my own terms and I would have lived the life I wanted to live. Enjoy life to the fullest and still study and finish college. Now I am make up for it by traveling a lot. . .
It sounds like a lot on your shoulders. I hope things work out for you, it really sounds like you\’ve been put in as a saviour for the family when you haven\’t chosen it for yourself.
Very intriguing post!!!!
Both my wife and I took major pay cuts to get our Ph.D.s, but we chose this path out of love of the career. Fortunately, we both became debt-free while in graduate school and the Ph.D. didn't wreak financial havoc on our lives. I definitely feel like it is very easy to justify going to school for a myriad of reasons other than enjoy pursuing one's passion. I do believe we as a society need to have more honest discussions about the dogma that 1) everyone has to go to school 2) everyone can go to the school of his or her choosing and 3) more education (via universities) is always a great decision.
#1 is the most important for me. I think trade schools are lacking in applicants, and they make good money, if that\’s what people are looking for.
We need to elevate those basic skills and give respect, if our kids choose to go into those paths.
I wrote about the same Postsecret recently (http://wp.me/p11GjP-8Z). I love writing, so naturally I went into English and teaching. With scholarships and assistantships (paid to tutor/teach) I still had to take out loans. The only job I could find after leaving grad school was part-time adjuncting at a community college that pays around $700 a month. Times are tough for teachers, but I don't want to go back to school or get a Ph.D because I owe more than I'm going to make in the next few years. And jobs for English Ph.Ds are hard to come by now, and will only disappear in the future.
My final thought is: even though I love teaching, our society puts so little value on education that it does not pay teachers enough to live on. My blog post on reconsidering my teaching career: http://wp.me/p11GjP-7I
I agree that teachers are undervalued, and some teachers who are in the system shouldn\’t be there if they aren\’t passionate about teaching.
Agreed 110% – and how about we pay a living wage to those who are passionate about teaching?!
Wow, very profound post.
I'll admit to being slightly embittered toward the whole higher education experience. I tried the whole "do what you love" approach, but of course, I had to pick the second hardest major (nursing being the hardest, and music being the second–why doesn't it surprise me my interests lie in such a direction?). By hardest, I mean most time-consuming.
Sadly, it didn't work out (mostly my choice, but when you feel like you have little option…), and I've watched others get their degrees only to work in jobs that require far less than their skill set, simply because there is nothing else out there. Those people also struggle to make ends meet, just trying to pay bills, between loans and household expenses, while others around them whittle away money wastefully.
It's very sad; we place so much value in a piece of paper that really doesn't do anything more than give us momentary bragging rights to our friends. And a lot of debt with it. If we're lucky, it pads our paychecks a tiny bit.
Honestly, though? I may not have a lot of money, but I'm doing what I love, and I'm in better straights than many I know who are struggling just to keep their bills met–many who have college degrees.
I guess it's the minimalist in me, but I find myself wondering if even useful things like education can really become clutter in our lives.
I went to college because I was told there was no other option (no, not even technical school was an option). But my experience and that of others makes me wonder if we place too much value in it? I know a lot of people who loved their college experience, and I'll even admit that I loved parts of mine. But seeing where a lot of us have ended up, I wonder if higher education is often just needless suffering?
Thanks for the opposing view on all of this!
I definitely value my education and wouldn\’t trade what I did, debt and all, for any other different option, but I do feel as though companies and society puts a higher value on education for certain jobs and skillsets than is required.
I mean, to work at Subway do you need a bachelors degree? NO, but I had a high school friend once, get turned down for not being in college!!!
I think it completely depends on what you want in life. Of course, if you're struggling, don't like your major, and are taking out a load of loans to pay to get a job you hate, it won't be worth it; however, it isn't fair to ignore the other half of that coin. There are the people who are going to college, doing well, and are majoring in something they love or majoring in one thing and plan to pursue a career in something else (i.e. in my case, I was majoring in math but want to go into higher education-leadership development. By the time I figured that out, I was 3.5 years into my degree, so I just started doing other things to make me more appealing to grad schools). For every person who is going to college and becoming a doctor or lawyer to appease their parents, there is the person who is working toward a career in something they are passionate about. In addition, I disagree with wishing for your twenties back. What would I be doing if I weren't sitting here right now in my living room with friends if I weren't in college? Would I be asleep because I had work in the morning, or waking up with the baby? College students don't spend all of their time in the library surrounded by Red Bull. There are student organizations, parties, football games, and a ton of fun stuff to do that help you make lifelong friends.
So I suppose, in a nutshell, my comment is that the answer to this question is completely dependent upon the person in question. I do not regret going to college, I will graduate in 5 years in May of 2012 with 2 BS and 1 BA, and I will hopefully be pursuing my master's degree, starting out with ~$4500 in loans from my undergrad. Not everyone is that "lucky" (to be young and attend a relatively inexpensive university) , but if you find something you're passionate about, sometimes the worry of spending time in school and having loans is worth it.
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I too, loved my education. I didn\’t love the years themselves so much, but I see how it\’s helped me in my (now) dream career and my life.
If you think it\’s worth it, go for it. Just don\’t have any regrets, I guess!
I was lucky enough to get a full-ride scholarship for my first uni degree, so I double majored and took advantage of the paid-for tuition. After a year off, I completed an MA (completely on loans). The exact MA was what allowed me to get into my current job. I consolidated my loans and the interest rate is at around 2.5%. I recently completed an MS for the cost of books; my employer paid for the entire program. (This really is the way to go!) However, after almost 30 years of pursuing studies, degrees, and jobs in the humanities and education, I have come to the decision that what I’m doing, while somewhat important, does not fulfill me, and definitely does not make me happy. Part of this is because of the way our upper management, well, manages. In a word, terribly. Someone with two Master’s degrees is basically a glorified editor.
My passion? Well, animals and animal welfare. After years in the humanities, I believe I’d convinced myself that I was “no good at science,” when in actual fact I had no basis for that rationale at all. I simply had not taken more than the basic, required science classes in HS or college.
So here I am, early 30s, getting ready to make the biggest decision of my life. Though I would like a family some day, I have to say that it is exactly because I don’t have a family to care for that I can make this decision: to return to school again, this time to become “Dr. Unavocis.” I’m not scared of the outcome, nor really the journey. Honestly, the most difficult, most terrifying part of this entire process has been DECIDING that I could do it. Having confidence in me was the scariest thing ever. I have a few years of pre-reqs to complete before I can even apply. In the meantime, this really will offer me a chance to prove to myself that it is where I’m meant to be.
So for me, though I’ve had just about all the education I thought I’d ever need, I would never had the opportunity to come to these crossroads if I hadn’t done exactly as I’ve done up until this point. I asked myself, Unavocis, when you leave this earth, what do you want to have left behind? What do you want your legacy to be? And honestly, it was an easy answer: I want to have left a legacy of love and care for our non-human brothers and sisters who share this planet, be they feline, pachyderm, or cetacean.
I feel peace since I made this decision. I know that my will and drive and inherent talent is there… I just need the training and the legal means to be on my way. Yes, it will take 6-7 years before I get there, but I believe that if I let that number scare me away from my path, then it really wasn’t mine to begin with.
An instructor once told me: “Once you’ve started, you’ve already finished.” In other words, the most difficult part about any journey is deciding to start. It is with starting that one begins, and ultimately finishes, any task.
I think I’ll take that as my motto.
I really think you did quite well for yourself, getting your employer to pay!
I\’ve heard of that in companies — they pay for Masters degrees and then you\’re locked in for 3 years or something, unless you want to pay them back to get out.
From your comment, your will is strong! I love that quote of your instructor, and I\’m glad you\’ve found your path and are at peace with it.
I was lucky enough to get a full-ride scholarship for my first uni degree, so I double majored and took advantage of the paid-for tuition. After a year off, I completed an MA (completely on loans). The exact MA was what allowed me to get into my current job. I consolidated my loans and the interest rate is at around 2.5%. I recently completed an MS for the cost of books; my employer paid for the entire program. (This really is the way to go!) However, after almost 30 years of pursuing studies, degrees, and jobs in the humanities and education, I have come to the decision that what I'm doing, while somewhat important, does not fulfill me, and definitely does not make me happy. Part of this is because of the way our upper management, well, manages. In a word, terribly. Someone with two Master's degrees is basically a glorified editor.
My passion? Well, animals and animal welfare. After years in the humanities, I believe I'd convinced myself that I was "no good at science," when in actual fact I had no basis for that rationale at all. I simply had not taken more than the basic, required science classes in HS or college.
So here I am, early 30s, getting ready to make the biggest decision of my life. Though I would like a family some day, I have to say that it is exactly because I don't have a family to care for that I can make this decision: to return to school again, this time to become "Dr. Unavocis." I'm not scared of the outcome, nor really the journey. Honestly, the most difficult, most terrifying part of this entire process has been DECIDING that I could do it. Having confidence in me was the scariest thing ever. I have a few years of pre-reqs to complete before I can even apply. In the meantime, this really will offer me a chance to prove to myself that it is where I'm meant to be.
So for me, though I've had just about all the education I thought I'd ever need, I would never had the opportunity to come to these crossroads if I hadn't done exactly as I've done up until this point. I asked myself, Unavocis, when you leave this earth, what do you want to have left behind? What do you want your legacy to be? And honestly, it was an easy answer: I want to have left a legacy of love and care for our non-human brothers and sisters who share this planet, be they feline, pachyderm, or cetacean.
I feel peace since I made this decision. I know that my will and drive and inherent talent is there… I just need the training and the legal means to be on my way. Yes, it will take 6-7 years before I get there, but I believe that if I let that number scare me away from my path, then it really wasn't mine to begin with.
An instructor once told me: "Once you've started, you've already finished." In other words, the most difficult part about any journey is deciding to start. It is with starting that one begins, and ultimately finishes, any task.
I think I'll take that as my motto.
well, count me as another "getting paid to do my PhD in science" commenter- I'm working on a PhD in a biomedical sciences field, and getting paid a stipend of a little less than $30,000, but in a city with a very low cost of living.
I went to college with the intention of going either into medicine or science, and ended up loving research. I could do similar work with just my B.S. (which I have a tiny bit of debt from), but I love the process of figuring things out for myself, and I want to be independent in my research (as much as is reasonable), not just follow directions. Without a PhD, you pretty much have to follow someone's directions.
So, even though I'm not done with my education, I'm pretty sure it will all be worth it. I won't be in debt by the time I'm done, and I'll get to do what I love. I think even if I had to pay for my PhD, I would want to go in this direction. I might have taken some time between undergrad and grad school to pay off my undergrad debt, and save up some money, but I would want the same things out of my career as I want now.
My recent post The Monday Incident that is de-railing my week
That\’s awesome that it\’ll all be worth it 🙂 I love hearing these stories!
Hi FB! Long time reader here, but new blogger – I'm excited that I can finally make comments =)
People ask me your question about higher education ALL THE TIME! I am in a somewhat unusual and lengthy graduate school program, but it is entirely paid for and I receive a stipend and health care. The stipend is certainly far less than what I could earn if I went to work with my BS, but the jobs available would not give me the intellectual ownership or freedom that I desire. The skills and mentorship that I receive during my graduate program are essential to my professional development, and the overall outcome for me will be a job where I can make my own decisions about what I study and how I do it. After working summer jobs that were well paying but rather mindless, I decided that I needed an intellectually stimulating job where I could shape my own research. Of course it might be possible to do all of this without the graduate degree, but it would certainly be much much more difficult and my chances of success would definitely be lower. Right now I'm still happy with my choices, but of course I expect I will have times in my life where I might question my decision.
~Shoes2Savings
(You should put your website on the page if you have one 🙂 That way people can follow you back to your blog)
I think you\’ve hit on something wonderful here — you have to be in a job that is intellectually stimulating.
I\’d go nuts if I got paid what I did, and all I did was enter information or look at sheets of data. For some that\’s fun, but for me it\’s utter torture.
Whoops, I thought that by commenting logged in to my wordpress blog my username would be a link to the blog..sorry I’m just starting this and am not sure how to do that. But here’s my blog: http://fromshoestosavings.wordpress.com It seems like the PF community is really supportive and full of great resources, so I’m thrilled to join in!
There! 🙂 Now I can do commentluv and link love back to you!
O. M. G. You read Charlie Broadway's blog TOO???? Are you a secret niece I never knew I had ?!? 😛
(BTW, I think CB very slightly conceded that it was ok to be white collar in certain professions – or he was just feeling mellow that week). I nearly fell over in shock when he commented on my other blog.
Only tangentially related, you might like this post: http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/10/16/the-passion…
HAHA!! Maybe. 🙂 A secret niece from another sister maybe.
Yes, perhaps he conceded a bit, but even so 🙂
Thanks for the link to the other post (you are a treasure trove of awesome links!)
For me the PhD wasn't about money.
I love school. I love learning. And to get the career I wanted I needed the Ph.D.
So to me, even though I did 4 years of college, 5 years of graduate school, and 3 years of post-graduate training, it was all worth it to have the job I love.
I go in every day excited, thrilled, ect. I love my job. And I couldn't have gotten it without that education. Financially, it wasn't the best decision. Financially I probably should have stopped at a Masters degree. But life isn't always about the finances.
I would do it all over in a heart beat to have the job I have now.
That is fabulous 🙂 I think it\’s AWESOME that you have your thrilling, dream job!
I originally went to university for biomedical science. 4 years later, I graduated with a double degree in physics and math. The original plan was to go to medical school. It still is, but am not sure if it’s the plan I want. Now, I am doing my master’s in biophysics and am seriously considering going all the way to PhD. I also work full time as a visual merchandiser and am really enjoying that aspect of my life as well.
As I look back on my short life, I think my current academic state is the product of the snowball effect. I just keep on going with it. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy physics and math. It excites me and turns me on (get your mind out of the gutter!) but after all this time (and money), I still don’t know what kind of viable career I want with this education (academic jobs are a big FAT no to me). I’m just trucking along. I keep using the excuse “I’m 23 years old, I have forever to think about it” but I can only use that for so long.
Well I hope you find your dream job and purpose soon. I really hope you can put all of your degrees to good use as per your own standards.
I went to college at 18 for my parents. Now at the age of 27, I'm going to college for myself. I worked minimum wage jobs and learned a lot. I dropped out after freshman year because I didn't want to keep going to college for my parents. I wanted to go to college for me. I am an accountant major because its a practical major and I'm learning a lot in my accounting classes.
Even if I don't end up working as an accountant for my entire life, at least I will have that degree, I really want to finish my bachelor's and not go further. I want to be done with school. I don't want to be done with learning but I want to be done with going to school. Even if I go into another career, all the knowledge in finance will benefit me for the rest of my life. No matter what field you go into, no matter what your career its important to be financially savvy.
Speaking for myself, its important to me to know about finances because I want to know that I'm okay financially whether I'm single or not, as a woman, its important for me to know about finances and to have that financial security.
I'm very torn over this. My thoughts are that, even though you may have gone to school to learn something you were interested in, there may not be jobs for that particular fields available and you may find by the time you get your degree, that you don't want to go into that field at all anymore.
I lost interest completely in my degree by the half way point. I toughed it out and got the piece of paper, with the associated bill (my own fault, no question about it) and now struggle to see why I did it.
I'm with you in that I will do what I love to do for free if that is the only option but I wish I realized that before spending all that money on a formal education.
Your post about going to college kind of sparked this one (and Post Secret pushed me into typing mode) so thank you 🙂
I think you are very similar to a friend of mine who got it done because.. he just had to get something on paper. Now he’s unhappy and kind of lost, with student loans to pay.
I came to uni at the age of 24 to eventually earn a degree in social sciences. I had a good paying job in customer service at the liquor store, but the demands of the job were wearing me out. I have a $33000 student loan, plus the opportunity cost of being in school when I could have been working full-time. However I eventually got a job in administration at my uni. I may be making the same amount of $$ as when I left my job in the 90s, but I am much happier here.
My sweetheart got his PhD in 2006. He did it all with scholarships and did not take any loans. At all. He is way overqualified for what he is doing now, and probably makes not much more than me. However he is debt-free so he is way ahead of me financially, plus his advanced degree gives him far more opportunities if they ever arise.
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I always wonder about those situations — being over qualified and if it would hurt you. I suppose if everything works out in the future for the better, he has his degree as a stepping stone in case he needs it.
My parent's original education plan for me (and thus, my plan) was to finish two years of college at my local community college, and from there find a way to fund more education or go straight to work. I started college at 17 while working retail. I floundered, I didn't have a defined career choice. School didn't feel right. So I dropped out and started working.
I eventually found a writing job, I was young but they were impressed with my writing/graphic design/web design skills. I was hired because I proved I could use them efficiently off the bat.
I've been working at the company for two years now, and I know I've learned more than the average marketing student learns in 4 years. (I know because I interviewed some fresh marketing grads from universities when we needed an assistant. They knew nothing, just inapplicable theories.)
Any friends that shared classes with me in college or went to college with me at the same time either have no work at all or work jobs unrelated to their field. I knew for some of them it would be this way because college doesn't change who you are fundamentally; if you had trouble finding work BEFORE college you will probably have trouble finding work AFTER college.
You learn best on-the-job, immersing yourself in the tasks you want to learn and practicing daily. I actually want to switch careers and work from home while I attend an art school for a BA in fine arts, but because I'm passionate about the field and want to learn more about it- not because I want to make money. (Well, obviously, it's a BA in ART!)
I agree with that — working on the job gives you the best education possible. I\’ve learned so much more at my job than I ever have on my own, studying books.
Experience = Best.
Degree = Great for getting into that first job, that first door, that first interview and stepping stone.
Great points!
I'm completing a Masters in Public Administration (6 weeks left – eek!), financed completely out of my own pocket, a cost of about $9,000. It took me three years – attending classes part-time and in the summer and continuing to work full-time. Given that the last time I was job hunting all the jobs I was 'qualified' for started between $25-32K and now I'm looking at jobs that start between $50-65k, it seems like a solid return on investment for me, since I'm not yet 30 years old. I still have about $17k in undergrad loans, but if I'm making a higher salary AND continue to work in the nonprofit field, I should either be able to pay it off quicker or be eligible for the new debt forgiveness program the federal US government is offering.
I definitely did not think about return on investment when I was in college. Honestly, I just got a degree and then left, and tried to pay it down. It\’s all so accidental for me, and I love hearing that you planned it out!! 🙂
I think it\’s great.
I went to college because I wanted to be a doctor. In undergrad I got my BS in biology and never got around to applying to medical school, but I was very lucky because between scholarships and my parents I graduated with no debt/ I found a job working at the state health department as a chemist where I made no money, had zero respect, and no promotion potential. That was motivation enough for me to apply to grad school. I'm going to graduate in May with a degree that will drastically increase my earning potential and I'll only have $12,000 in debt. I'm hoping to pay that off before it goes into repayment. When I graduate, my hospital administrative internship will turn into a full-time job with a pay raise of $30,000… this makes me think that my master's degree was totally worth it. I love my job and couldn't be happier with my decision to go back to school. My question is, how did all of these other people get their school paid for? And how did they get a living wage as a grad student? I'm making $15,000 as an intern and that's hard when you have a mortgage and other living expenses.
Congratulations on taking the step to do your degree and to turn your life around with a masters degree!
As for payment of schooling I think it\’s a number of things
1) scholarships, bursaries
2) company pays for their masters but you are locked into working for the company for 3 years for them to recoup their payment
3) the college pays to have you as an intern there/grad student to help out the professors
I\’m also wagering a guess that people don\’t have mortgages, just rent, and they live like students.
I also think as per the other comments, it\’s $30,000/year for BS grad students.
I couldn't do my job without a PhD or Masters + 5 years of work experience. While they equate to a similar amount of time, I think I became a stronger clinician by taking the PhD route. I think a lot differently now, and my store of knowledge is a lot greater. I make a good living in my field, and loved learning during those extra few years of school. I have a lot more options open to me down the road because of this additional training. I wanted to have a leadership role and "write my own ticket" as they say-this degree has certainly accomplished this goal for me. I worked hard teaching, researching, telemarketing, and anything else I could do to get through school without debt, and mostly accomplished this task (about $5000 accumulated over 10 yrs-not bad I'd say). Well worth it in my books, but I recognize 10 yrs of university is not for everyone.
Definitely worth it if you need it for your job. I support that, especially if you love the job and can pay back the loan in a reasonable amount of time.
Hi psychsarah,
I assume you are a psychologist. What kind of work do you do and for what kind of institution?
My knowledge about this is mostly related to the field of psychology, so what I'm saying may not apply to other fields. I have a BA in psych from a very prestigious school, and I've found that in my 6 years of working that I'm a much better employee than a lot of the people who work in my field (clinical research). I have been able to move up into management positions within academia, and for a long time I was considering graduate school so that I could one day be a faculty member myself.
What has me thinking twice about that plan is that psych PhD students often need to do 5-6 years of a degree (with about $20-30k stipend), plus 2-4 years of a very low paying post-doc (we pay ours about $33k), and then start off in a low paying faculty position, competing to move up. I just don't think that at this point, it makes sense to take up to 10 years out of my working career to make barely enough to survive, get that much further behind on saving for retirement, only to not be guaranteed to make a salary that makes up for all of those sacrifices. As a kick-ass, stand-out staff member, I can move up in the system and probably make around $75k by the time I'm 30 or 32 (~10 years out of college), and probably max out around $90k, which is approximately what my dad makes as a professor at a state university (he has a PhD). As someone that really isn't interested in working 60+ hours a week, which is often required in faculty positions, I've definitely realized that I don't need to make over 100k to feel satisfied in life and obtain the things I want/need.
So I really think that sometimes, it's not only the degree, but also what kind of other sacrifices you need to make to be in that position.
I agree. Time is a valued resource that can\’t be taken back, or earned.. unlike money.
You have a good plan!
As SP pointed out, very few people do a PhD for the money. Primarily, people do it because they want to do research in a field, oftentimes in a very small area of the field. However, getting into a well-respected PhD program in many fields is extremely tough, and most of the candidates who can get into one of those programs are giving up much higher-earning and less difficult paths. Getting through the PhD program is also often extremely competitive and challenging. A huge number of people never finish.
I never went to university and there are definitely days that I regret that decision. I read a ton of both blogs and books and would consider myself a lifelong learner. After high school I was so tired of learning things I viewed as useless that I didn't even consider university. Over the years I've taken various courses that have helped me both professionally and personally, a course that has worked well for me and I would encourage more students to take that route.
Rather than go to college I worked my a$$ off working nights at a grocery store, living in my parents' basement (until I was 25!) and saving every spare penny I could. By the time my peers had graduated I was sitting on a nice net worth. Sure, some of them had better earning potential than I did, but I had assets producing income for me.
As time has gone on, I see them buying brand new houses, flashy cars, and all sorts of other things that the masses value over saving. In my former career as a mortgage broker I saw all sorts of young couples max themselves out by buying brand new houses. It always made me a little sad.
For me personally, I'm glad I never went back to school. It worked for me. That fantastic chart that you posted proves that there are millions of people who are, financially at least, worse off because of higher education. Perhaps it's time to rethink our "go to university/college or you'll be a failure" attitude.
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I did find a lot of college courses to be useless, to be frank with you. A lot of it seemed like a load of BS (I had to take some course on mapping ANIMALS and their genealogy to pass a requirement for first year).
Did that help me in life? Not really, although it sure taught me how to organize an animal tree and reason out evolution for an animal. It also taught me how to write under pressure for 3 hours without stopping.
I stayed with my parents until 19, but I moved back in while I was on a project in the city for a few months, paid them full rent & paid for my own food and expenses, then moved out again instead of signing a lease. No shame in that! 🙂 I think it\’s admirable you saved so much money in doing so to have such a nice net worth.
I should note that the chart I posted, as one astute reader pointed out, doesn\’t take into account if they are second jobs they hold in addition to their regular jobs.
I'm a PhD student in the life sciences and can confirm SP's comments that there's no tuition, a yearly $30K stipend, and subsidized housing (my apt in the city is 60% of market rate). Most students go into the program because they love science and the degree is valuable. I'm actually leaving academia after I finish my PhD and have accepted an offer in consulting with MBB.
Most people pursuing an advanced degree are in it for the long-term value of the degree. They expect that at some point in their career, they are going to hit a ceiling with just a BS. Going back to grad school is also a great way to change career paths. Friends of mine have switched from ibanking to microfinance, from chemistry to IP law, from biology to VC. These career transitions would have been next to impossible without grad school for both the advanced degree and campus recruiting/ internship opportunities.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
I do agree that as a society, recruiters tend to look at education, especially higher education as a filter for candidates. I just didn\’t know how prevalent it was!
It's not just recruiters who consider educational credentials. It's also venture capitalists, shareholders, etc. I hope to become the CEO of a biotech some day. It'd be pretty unlikely to secure millions in funding from a VC without some sort of advanced degree or decades of experience. (You might be able to get funded as a 20yr old in silicon valley, but certainly not in drug development where the upfront capital necessary starts in the tens of millions.)
Also thought I'd share some numbers since other comments have and you seem to find them interesting (I know I do). My post-graduate starting salary will be around $200K. I certainly would not be able to earn that kind of salary with just a bachelors in the life sciences, even after many many years of experience.
Another good point. I think it depends on the technical nature of what you are pitching. Something like Facebook, perhaps not. But you\’re right — new medical technologies means you have to be sure you know what you\’re talking about.
Then again, you\’d never pitch a product you didn\’t understand or feel good about to a VC, so I think teh two go hand in hand.
I also think that since you\’re in biotechnology, it stands to reason with it being more technical in nature that you\’d be paid more, and you\’ve advanced your degree. Congrats on the $200k! 🙂 That\’s awesome.
I find the same holds true for math, engineering and any sort of job that requires a lot of skill in what people tend to shy away from (even in school I was discouraged to go into math or science because it was \’hard\’, I turned out to love math).
I liked your thought process with this post. I'm always curious about people's reasons for doing things also. I'd be interested to see the results you get!
My story is this: I went to college right after high school graduation, but didn't consider it important enough for me at the time to do well. I ended up with a 1.9 or something like that, got married, had children, struggled for a decade and a half, and finally decided that it was worth my time to finish that education I started.
I got my associate's degree, had to wait a few years, am at the end of my bachelor's, and will be starting my master's this spring. I'm doing it all on loans, which is depressing, but necessary with three children and a husband who doesn't make very much. I'm worried about finding a job when I'm through, but that's not going to stop me. I think right now my SLD is up to $26k. Frightening.
My master's will be in the education field. I got lucky about a decade ago when I began teaching computer science classes for our local community college (the then-instructor had a heart attack, so I was asked to take over his class until he got back, then he died so I was asked to take over permanently). I had to certify in MS Office to do it, and began teaching as an adjunct instructor through an outreach facility. I've enjoyed it, however, I won't end up with a teaching degree when I'm done with my master's. (I'm more of a behind-the-scenes type of gal.) I'm hoping to land a job designing curriculum, researching and bringing in new technologies for the classroom, and teaching and troubleshooting the new technologies for the educators.
And to answer one of the questions in your post; yes, it does sound terribly interesting (if not exciting) to me. I will admit this, though: two of the most fun and interesting jobs I've held are floral designer, and graphic artist. I've never had so much fun at a job in my life than those two, but teaching my computer classes comes at a close second. There's something very satisfying about imparting knowledge to others, helping them to learn something new, and seeing their faces light up when they figure out something that had been confusing them. Not that it doesn't take a LOT of patience.
Many of the students I had when I began teaching were elderly. Several of them had profound memory problems. Many of them were actually scared of the computer. But, looking back, I think that was a great education for me; teaching me patience, and teaching me how to simplify instructions. I wouldn't have been as successful without those early lessons.
Feel free to email me if you're curious! BTW: I'll be turning 40 this spring. Blech!
Oh my. What a story. The guy DIED? Great for you but that really sucks for him and his family.
I think computers and classes for computers are exciting 🙂 Then again, I’m biased!!
And don’t knock your age. 40 is a beautiful age to be in 🙂 You’re still young but with more experience. I think it’s really fulfilling if you help others who otherwise would not be helped. That sounds like a great job.
I’m only curious about how I could do something and help out the elderly in the same way. Perhaps I ought to start with my parents 🙂
I enrolled in my undergrad program in the Sport Management field. I knew that I liked business classes and sports, so I found a program that combined the two. During my 4 years of undergrad I was able to get into the Co-op program, giving me great experience each summer.
When the final semester hit I realized that I didn’t want to leave school – I loved learning, and still do. So, I applied for my Masters (in the same discipline) and was accepted. 3 years later I could add MA behind my name.
In retrospect when I decided on going back to school I should have given more than 5 minutes of thought as to what I wanted to take. I’ve always loved the law, and if given the opportunity again I would have applied to Law School instead of my Masters program. Granted it would have been more expensive, but would have taken the same amount of time.
Salary-wise I’ll made good money, by Canadian standards – My average over the past 3 years is about $56,000, but I won’t be rolling in the dough.
I think $56,000 is definitely rolling in the dough! That’s nothing to sneeze at. I find that $50,000 tends to be the salary most people consider to be a lot of money. 🙂
Thanks for chiming in. I’ll go RSS feed your blog now 🙂
I agree with SP. In science and engineering, a masters or PhD is typically paid for so you do come out ahead – no debt and higher earning potential.
One thing that the article doesn't take into account is whether or not th jobs listed are second jobs. For example, bartender is one job listed with a really a high percentage of degrees. I know a lot of people that moonlight as bartenders, but do have a job in their field as well.
Oh I had no idea. My family member didn’t get paid. The way she talked about it, it was like it was all coming out of her pocket and she didn’t make anything.
Good point re: second jobs in the article
In the music field, my husband's grad degree allowed his income to double since it opened up his ability to teach at the college level. That isn't the norm though, and the cruddy part is that full time college positions are few and far between. Going to the grad school he went to for music also opened up the potential for greater music career opportunities in the performance field, but again, only a small percentage actually make any money in performance, and you have to be willing to live like a pauper or wait tables until that time comes.
I enjoyed college myself, but always wished I would have waited a few years until I knew myself better. The field I picked was who I was then, but not who I am now.
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I say congratulations to your husband!
I’ve heard that complaint a lot — that people wish they had waited until they knew what they REALLY wanted.
yeah, ditto SP. It was never a question of going to college–it was a given. And I got paid to go to grad school and get my MS and study the subject that I love because there is funding for science. It was the best deal ever. Grad students in science do the crap work that the professors don’t have time for, and the students get a free ride plus stipend and valuable experience in return. i’m so lucky i love science!
I don’t regret it at all–on the contrary, it was the best decision I ever made. I did it because a) I didn’t want to go out in the real world and get a job I wasn’t ready for and b) my undergrad school didn’t offer the major that would have allowed me to study my subject in depth. (it was kind of a ‘concentration’ under a larger umbrella–and I found my career love AFTER I chose my school and by that time it was really too late, I was settled in with friends, my family had run out of money, and my credits wouldn’t transfer elsewhere so I was stuck in the school without my preferred major.)
i’m thinking of getting my phd once i narrow my field of study down even further. and i’d be getting my phd just because while i get to do really awesome research with my MS, i’d have to stay in NZ to continue doing it. i want to move nearer to my parents, but the research jobs that are on par with what i do now require a phd in the US. Plus there is a salary ceiling and i think there’s a serious bias against people without Dr in front of their names, even though my master’s project took 4 years and was basically a PhD unto itself, it doesn’t count as such. i’d mostly be doing it for notoriety rather than actually wanting or needing it. …which is why I’m holding off.
I think science is a great field to go into. So many different jobs and positions that are available with a BS degree.
I too, am thrilled I went to college, but I’ll never have to take a grad degree at all, seeing as I don’t want to become a manager or “rise” any higher. I like my job the way it is.
I think it's pretty simple; get a degree that actually has skills that can be used in the workplace and you'll make good money. Get an anthropology degree and enjoy bartending.
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I think it's a bit harsh to criticize people who get degrees in liberal arts and say they're going to be stuck bartending or being a waitress.I think it goes both ways to be honest.
I have a degree in Psychology and have been working at my current position since before I even finished my degree. It's a consulting job dealing with websites. I paid for the last two years of my education with what I earned (parents paid for the first half), and I don't have any school loans. I got a small bump in my hourly rate after a degree but nothing much, and I was still making more than my classmates who graduated with "useful" degrees like computer science, engineering, etc. It was harder for some of them to find jobs after college. Maybe it's more about what you know and what's on your resume than what degree you had in college.
So, did my education help me? Slightly. It's nice to have the degree because some jobs require it, but I don't apply the knowledge I learned there on a daily basis. At least now when it comes to work.
I felt the same way in learning math in college. I know I needed it for some reason, but the abstract concepts NEVER get used in my daily job now. Kind of strange.
I am also not entirely convinced that computer science is a useful degree, but I suppose it\’s what you do with it after, and you\’ve certainly come out on time!
I think a degree can get you into the door, but to keep you there, you need to learn, grow and have experience in your field, which is a skill not a lot of people think is important have, with degrees or without.
Well, I went to university because it was expected. Plus I wanted to keep learning. I refused to do any further education after university though, because it was costing so much, and I just couldn’t justify it.
That and I was tired of school and needed a break. The downside is that now I’m tired of work and need a break, and I miss how wonderful it was when you finally finished classes and you actually did that month off before work, since exams could be anytime 😛
I graduated with 28K in student loans, paid them off in 2.5 years, but I don’t want more school debt.
I think I went to university because it was expected as well. I’m just lucky I got the degree right the first time, I guess.
I don’t miss exam period at all. I hope you’re taking your vacation days 🙂
I think it is important to note that in a lot of science fields, the students don't typically pay for the phd and don't come out with debt. Of course, they spend years with a stipend of ~30k instead of a salary at least double (or triple!) that they could potentially be making in industry with just a BS or an MS.
Most people I know studying for a PhD do it because they want to to research, either in industry or academia. You CAN do research without one, but it is much much more rare.
I went to college because it was always assumed I would, and I certainly didn't want any jobs that were otherwise available to me. I got my MS while working to give me an edge and to explore my area of expertise more deeply. You just can't get as deep in undergrad.
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I see. My family member didn’t go into science so perhaps it was why she didn’t get paid?
I’ve heard that too –> going deep into a MS helps you focus what you learned in general in your undergrad. I guess science is the field for degrees!
I went to Uni because I love to learn. I majored in International Studies Economics because I love to travel and thought economics couldn't be that hard. Now I'm a wedding photographer living in Chile. But down the road I can do whatever I want because of my degree. So maybe the degree is security for when I feel like growing up.
And when you decide to switch (if ever) your degree is there to help you not only grow up, but get a job that requires a degree, any degree.
I am just about to finish a four-year degree (Logic/English Double major), which I more or less fell into. I began in Computer Science, then moved to Classics, Philosophy, and then ended up where I am now. I realise that the degree will have almost no impach on my career (other than having another line on my resume), but I wouldn't change anything if I went back in time – I've learned a lot about myself.
I'm also considering returning for a seperate, five-year profesional degree (Architecture and Digital Design), because that's where I want to go with my life. All up, thhis will leave me with a debt of about $65K at the end, which I realise is a lot, but have already started accounting for it. (Also the Australian loan scheme is much more forgiving than that in North America).
What’s a degree in Logic? Is that Philosophy and Classics?
I think you’re very much like Steve Jobs for me. He too, took whatever classes interested him, no matter if it was about calligraphy or whatnot.
I also think that going for what you are passionate about is a good call, just taking any degree without knowing why, is surefire path to disappointment and misery.
I am sure there are PhDs out there who like their jobs and make a to of money. There are also people out there who only have a high school degree who like their jobs and make a lot of money. For my own part I would not want to have missed my education and I am glad that my wife is also well educated(1 bachelor, 2 masters, and 1PhD. And she graduated only with small student loans.
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That’s great for your wife!
Thanks for chiming in.
I went to college because it was my parents' dream – I was the first in my family. I didn't know what I wanted to do and I changed my major several times. I liked my secretarial job and decided I just wanted to finish a degree and have it. When I was growing up 'everybody' said "You can't get anywhere without a high school diploma." Not getting that was never an option! By the time I got to high school that same thinking applied to a Bachelor's degree and when I had a BA in psychology my professor told me I'd need at least a Master's to get any money in that field. A year after I finished my BA I was bored in my job (advancement isn't always a great deal) and returned to night school to get a Masters – in Public Health, as I worked at the health department and was fascinated by the subject. I loved the next job I had, leaving work one Friday as a secretary and returning Monday as a public health 'professional' – huge leap in responsibility, about $100 a month more. I loved that job and was never again bored at work. The most I ever made was about $75,000 (largely due to the exchange rate), but that was enough for me to live well enough and retire at 51 (inheriting 2 rental houses didn't hurt either).
I thought about going for a PhD but did the math and worked out I wouldn't earn the tuition back, not if I was going to retire early – that was the plan ever since I first read Your Money or Your Live. In some of my later years at work here in the UK I shared an office with a couple of researchers – both women with PhDs, years of experience and pages of publications. It was a sweatshop environment that I observed, they were so focused, so pressured I was grateful never to have gone down that road. One has since made Professor, but the other woman, just as dedicated and efficient, still has no tenure.
Given what my education got me, I'm glad I did it. Also glad I didn't go any further and Very Glad to be out of it all.
In my family, my mom was the first to go to university. My dad didn’t.
I think your high school diploma is our undergraduate degree today. Without an undergrad it’s so hard for people to find a job.
$75,000 is nothing to sneeze at. I think you did wonderfully! I also like how you worked out the tuition and the math for how much it would cost.
I do not have a qualification to my name, except I finished a Hairdressing Apprenticeship many years ago. It did,nt matter much when I was young, and could get by on looks and enthusiasm. But now that I am 60 and stuck in a job I hate and have no chance, without a degree or diploma, of moving on. Then I wish I could go back in time and get that degree. It,s all about qualifications now and yes some may feel they lost their twenties, but it,s a hell of a lot better than wasting your whole working life.
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I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. Thank you for sharing.
I have an undergraduate degree in Arts (Communications) and am currently doing a Masters in Human Services Management. The reason I went into my Masters straight out of doing undergrad is that I didn't know WHAT I wanted to do with an Arts degree, and needed some thinking time…and for someone who was good at education (I get good marks without trying too hard), it seemed the logical option to give myself a bit of breathing space.
It was a blessing in disguise though, because in doing my Masters, I got myself a job working in the human services in a communications and community relations capacity as 'experience', and I discovered that I love it. Would I have gotten into the not for profit sector and discovered that I love this field if I hadn't started the Masters and just looked for work out of undergrad? Probably not. I'd probably just be an admin assistant or receptionist at a media or PR firm somewhere. I might have eventually worked my way up to PR manager or something similar, but would I have been as content? Probably not.
Now I know what I want to do for work (fundraising, events, communications in not for profit organisations), and it's because I decided to do further education. So it definitely worked for me in that respect.