rant/
Why is it that it seems like women always have to seem to be the nice ones?
When men aren’t the nice ones, they’re not called bitches.
They’re called hardasses, which is not as negative as being a “bitch”.
When slapped on one cheek, we can’t fight back.
We have to turn the other and say: “Sorry for offending you. Here’s a brownie I baked. Please forgive me.”
Forget that!!
But when we DO fight back in the same spirit, we’re called “mean” and “hostile”.
The rule has always been that I respond in like:
If you’re rude, I’m rude.
If you’re kind, I’m kind.
Words matter.
But for some reason when BF does it, it’s seen as being a take-charge, confident attitude because he knows what he wants and he’s going to get it.
When I do it, I’m being an aggressive bitch.
I’ve observed this when we negotiate for our rates as consultants.
They are always aggressive on the phone, asking you to lower your rates because their margins are “razor thin”.
This a typical game they play to try and get more money in their pockets because $10/hour is not chump change.
It’s $20,000 a year. ($10/hour x 50 working weeks x 40 hours).
We use the same words to ask for what we want, and even with the same tone and delivery – firm and final.
I get attacked when I do it, and BF gets respect.
I was also told that I am an “aggressive” person who has to learn how to compromise because I might have to work with them again (i.e. play well with others), whereas BF is a “confident” person who knows what he’s worth, and is just asking for a fair rate.
We aren’t even asking for the same rates.
I’m asking for a good $30-$40 lower than he is, in many cases, because I’m adjusting for years of experience.
In the end, instead of being a confident and assertive person who wants a fair rate, I’m a raging, career-crazed woman who’d probably eat her young if she could find the time to have any.
How nice.
/rant
Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver.
I cleared $60,000 in 18 months earning $65,000 gross/year.
Now I am self-employed, and you can read more about 
Oh oh oh. I love doing this because it confuses the hell out of the other party. When someone tries to insult me and calls me a bitch, I just smile and say, "Thank you! That is so nice of you to say!" – leaving said other party with a WTF? look on their face. *evil snicker*
Besides, I take it as a compliment – always have, always will 😉
This was one of those situations where I couldn\’t smile or make a joke like I normally could. My defenses were so up…
hey FB,
There is nothing to do with gender. However, you need to play the game properly. %80 of the time, you are going to deal with man in the IT field. You need to create a connection with them as quick as possible. Then gain trust by answering their questions just 2-3 techie ones. After that, turn the table around. Let them talk, you just kick back relax and ask questions.
In terms of negotiations, never ever talk with the headhunters who low ball by discrediting you. Be respectful and say "it was nice to talking with you and I would love to keep in touch with you for future positions. But, maybe this position is not for me." That is it. 60% at the time, they may retreat to say, do you have any flexibilty etc. Tell them that, you have a range X – 1.4X, give them a wide range, dependent upon, client, location, and project. In this phase try to get the client interview, that is your objective.
After the client interview, you are there… Client is invested, headhunter is invested, so you have all the cards.
Good luck.
-CD
Thanks for the tips. I’m already with a client is fantastic with a good rate, so I hope other readers will read your comment & it’ll help ’em 🙂
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm in a law enforcement career field and I pretty much have to be assertive with my job. I have to be tough with the people I interact with including my coworkers which are mostly guys. If I'm not they will eat me alive. They're tough on each other and tough on me. I actually had a person call me a bitch to my face though. I think it just pissed me off more. What reason did they have to call me a bitch just because I was doing my job? None. I tried being nice and friendly all the time but then I get called "sweetheart" or "babe". Yeah, it's honestly not worth it. I agree with the other ladies here. If doing my job gets me called a bitch that just means I'm doing my job well.
Sweetheart/babe/honey would also annoy me, but I actually don’t get called those names at all
Maybe my face scares them off from trying 😛
Story of my life. Women are always perceived as bitches for being career-focused. Look at Madonna. She's a hard-ass and knows what she wnats to get stuff done…and people call her a bitch!
I love the post. Really got me thinking. Your post here actually made me think more critically about the exchange I had with someone (male) about freelance rates. Sadly, it's important for women in negotiation/interview situations to be cognizant of this because being too "proud" of your education, accomplishments, etc., can also get a woman labeled a B, let alone negotiating a fair and deserved wage.
Yep. It’s a fine balance between being sweet and being confident.
I have worked with a staff of mainly women at one time, and a staff of mainly men another. I enjoyed working with the women more because of the collaborative effort was way more natural and there was not this one-upmanship that happened in the manly place.
I had two male bosses that were outed for horrible ethics that were seen as great leaders at one time. They were pushy, bossy, and go-getters. But in actuality, they were troubled people that were hiding! For some reason women are given less room to be pushy but also less room to hide.
I do hate the disparity in pay for women in professional roles and respect. I have really enjoyed the women I have worked with and offer most of them great respect. A few of the men I have worked with that fit totally into your rant, I wanted to punch in the face because they cared more about themselves than the team or the mission.
Thanks for the honest rant. And for navigating the crazy corporate world with an honest mind. Good luck!
It may be more of a teamwork thing.
But in response to your comment about it being more collaborative and less of a one up-manship, I do find that women DO stab each other in the back once in a while, trying to be the alpha female.
It all depends on the work environment and the people, and there are many ways to look at it.
My example was just one situation where I was being told I wasn’t worth as much as I felt I was worth, because I was a young woman. It was as though I should be happy being fed crumbs.
I find it funny that you mention making brownies as an apology. Because one explanation I use when trying to illuminate men to the inherent expectations is: Have you ever heard a man say, "Wow, your wife cooks? Meals? Does she have a sister?!" or "Omigosh, your wife cleans? Without you ASKING?! Where did you FIND her????"
The worst of it is that we all fall into this stuff at times. Before we got married, I wondered what in the hell I'd feed us/any future kids because I don't cook much. It wasn't even an ASSUMPTION that Tim would cook more too. Now, I cook because it saves us money, not because it's some weird expectation. But, even though women who don't cook are becoming more common, it's still not the norm in any way. Meanwhile a guy who does cook is practically put on a pedestal.
Of course, I also pissed Tim off recently by saying I had decided I needed a wife. He didn't take it as a joke. But it is sort of true. If most women had wives — that is, they took on more of the chores and child care unthinkingly — we'd have a lot more time and energy to devote to our careers/blogs/etc. But that's just my jaded view.
*LAUGH*!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s exactly true. BF cooks really great cuisines all the time, and people SWOON over him.
But when I mention that I cook as well and it isn’t all him, they’re not as interested until I “prove” it to them with my meals and my cakes.
I know the feeling.
It used to bother me but I've gotten to the point where I just let it roll off my back. If they don't like me standing up for myself, then that's on them. And when they label me, that just shows how narrow minded they are, IMO. So what if they want to call me a **tch for speaking my mind. I won't pay it another thought and they certainly won't get any brownies from me 😉
This has happened to me on several occasions. If you watch the TV show House at all, the latest one illustrates this really well. It's called 5-9 and is about Dr. Cuddy.
Anyway. Yes. Women who assert themselves get called bitches.
I am SO sick of being called a bitch when I'm just trying to be fair and assert my self-worth.
And there’s a difference between being aggressive and assertive in my mind.
Aggressive is when you won’t compromise, collaborate or try to work fairly in any way.
Assertive is when you are trying to find equal ground, but just won’t let what you really feel is the best idea, go.
So true. Even though I was an Obama supporter during the 2008 presidential primary it was awful how Hillary Clinton was disrespected because she's a woman who had the audacity to think she could be president.
One day we'll break through the white house glass ceiling and all the other ceilings out there.
Sadly it's true. I wonder when or if that will ever change.
Ugh! I'm sick of the double-standard! I hate how I get blamed for everything, like when this one girl I know got pissed because the $50 wedding present WE gave her wasn't good enough for her (even though we weren't invited to the wedding and, frankly, don't owe her anything). Was she pissed at my husband? Not that I'm aware of, even though it was as much his idea as mine. She still seems to think he's great and I'm the bitch that doesn't deserve him. (She even thinks that my husband and I are headed to divorce which was news to us seeing as we're doing GREAT. Wishful thinking?)
And there are so many other times where I find myself just standing up to people and saying, "No. You have no right to treat me that way." That gets me labelled a bitch but my husband can say just about anything he wants (though he doesn't) and people respect him MORE for it. And sometimes I wish he WOULD say more because I'm tired of being the bad guy that people get mad at while everyone adores him when I know he feels the same as I do and is even really happy I'm saying what I'm saying.
In any case, no, I do not feel like I'm a bitch. If we're to use the word bitch it should be reserved for people who TRY to hurt people, people who back-stab for the fun of it, people who take what isn't theirs to take, people who spread malicious gossip and lies, people who call people names to their face. I don't do those things. I don't even cuss at people when I'm mad at them. Instead, I go out of my way to help people and I try to be good listener and I'm a (too) loyal friend. But I will not put up with people expecting me to be a passive punching bag because they've had a bad day or they're jealous or they just need someone to hate because they don't know how not to.
Interesting rant. I admit that I sometimes would like to be a woman for a while just to get a sense of how the world looks from a woman's point of view – generally speaking of course. Is it as bad as some women rant it is? From my perspecitve it doesn't seem so, but then again I wouldn't know as my own perception on life would be unique and limited to my maleness. I do see the logic however about the differences perceived by the same behaviour.
I thought you were happy with where you are though, so why rant? Are you job searching again?
Personally, I find "aggressive" males to be dicks – bitch equivalents I would say. I don't like nor respect those that think "slamming you into the wall" is the way to get anywhere, but then again maybe I don't as far because I'm not as aggressive, and view collaboration more important.
Oh no I LOVE my client and my job — I am not referring to them at all.
I am not job searching at all.
It’s from a thought I had the other day that Meg triggered in regards to my interviews that happened recently. And just in general….
The thing about being called a bitch as a woman, is that you are TRYING to collaborate with people, but when you really, passionately believe that it is not the right way to do something, and you say so… or you stay firm on something you believe in (like making sure things are done right), people don’t see it that way and think you’re being some sort of Nazi.
They see it as you being aggressive because you won’t compromise for them and bend to their rules, or let them be lazy and do a half-ass job.
It's unfortunate, but give it 10 years so that the old tymers can die off, then it should be better. Afterall, look at how much more tolerant society is of differences -say homosexuality, women equality, and so on – then is was in previous decades. As people get exposed to more and more media, eventually more people will get beyond the petty stuff. In the meantime, it sounds like you got yourself a sweet setup, so role with it. Good companies will prosper, bad ones that are incapable of hiring good employees will die off.
I hope so. At any rate, I’m thrilled with this client so far. Let’s talk to me in a month and see, hmm? 🙂
I should also point out that this is not the case at my current client.
They’re VERY collaborative, and I respond in like, and they actually listen to me and take me seriously for my experience rather than seeing me as a young woman first, and letting that cloud their judgment of what I can do.
Yes, E_Z it is. It's not this bad all the time, but it is this bad.
Men who climb their way to the top, the worst that is said about them is maybe that they're slimy kiss-ups. If a woman climbs her way to the top she's either a ruthless bitch (even though ruthlessness is prized in a man) or she's sleeping her way up. On the other hand, if we don't keep our looks up to a certain standard, we're considered asexual and overlooked. And would you EVER think about a man, "Gosh, he could be good-looking if he just got on a diet/treadmill and lost those 20 lbs. And shouldn't he cover up that gray? Isn't that the same suit he wore last week?"
But I guarantee it's at least slipped into your mind in some way about a woman in the office.
How many unattractive women have you seen be in power at corporations? Now how many unattractive men? Even taking into account how many more men there are in the business world, proportionally, a woman has to look a certain way and act a certain way in order to be acceptable.
If a man isn't a team player, he may be an ass, but he may also be individualistic, unbending, sure of what he wants. A woman is manipulative, controlling and/or a bitch. If a man plays on his looks to get him places, he's a player or a flirt. If a woman does it, she's a slut.
I'm not saying that we live our lives in degradation, but all of these factors are clear to pretty much anyone willing to take a look. It's something we live in day in, day out, as a basic knowledge that this is the way the world often works. And if you're trying to build a career, how much do you want to just hope that enough people in your office are enlightened that you don't have to play any of these games? Usually, we'll end up bowing to at least a few of these conventions, if we have any interest in long-term advancement.
I know this sounds abstract to a lot of guys. It's just a constant knowledge that most women have in the back of their heads: We'll be judged more harshly for more minor offenses, so watch yourself. Just like, we know it's unlikely that this guy behind us on the street will try to rape us. But that doesn't mean we can let our guard down when we're walking home late from work.
It's just some double standards are built into this society so deeply none of us are safe. Ask yourself, same credentials, would you hire a man with a kid with chronic health problems, or a woman with a kid with chronic health problems? (Both have spouses.) Probably the man because most of us assume he's less likely to take off work when his kid takes sick. Which makes no sense. But it's also likely to be true. Men don't feel the social pressure that women do.
Okay, I'm officially rambling but the lid comes off and the ranting comes out. (if you want a little more rambling, check out my own comment down the line about other stereotypes.)
Fabulous reply. Really spot on.
"But I guarantee it's at least slipped into your mind in some way about a woman in the office." Actually I personally disagree with every bit of that statement. If anything, I'm personally more critical of the men in the company, especially in fashion, and question whether men in general think that way of women. Men are more simplistic in thought than women realize. If anything, it's women who are more critical of other women. Like anything in life, the more attractive person – male or female – will get more favourable treatment. That is the inherent fact of life
I work for a large multi-national who's president is a female. I have no doubt she got to the top because she was assertive – just like an CEO/president climbing the ranks would be) and knew what was best for the busines. She does strike fear in the hearts of most people, but then again, who doesn't get nervous when evaluated from high up on the food chain? In side conversations, I never heard anyone refer to her as a bitch. So, really, I question your extreme view of the world. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth in it, but the way it sounds, it's like a conspiracy.
But you’re talking about one case. We’re talking about a GENERAL view of women. She’s ONE example, and is not the rule.
I actually think the biggest problem is that more and more women are filtering into the ranks – not because of their skill, but rather because they are a woman. Now, don't get me wrong, I could care less if the person climbing the ranks is a woman or man, but it irks me when I see a woman get a role who isn't necessarily qualified/competent but received the role just because of gender. Whatever happened to progression due to competentcy? I know one manager who I have no idea what she does other than dump work onto her supervisors – I filled in her role for a month and a half. And yet, she's this prized "superstar" with many awards. At the end of the day, if a person doesn't get results, then they shouldn't advance- male or female.
But you can say the same thing about minorities getting roles just because of their skin colour.
We’re getting off topic — the topic is that in general, women who are assertive are seen as bitches in many people’s eyes.
We’re talking about people getting generalized by their gender because women are SUPPOSED to be nice, rather than assertive. We’re SUPPOSED to not speak up. We’re SUPPOSED to be grateful that we’re earning what we earn, and not ask for more.
That’s the whole point. What you’re talking about it something totally different.
This is a generalized statement, not the rule for every woman and every person who works above, with, or under a woman.
It's a horrible problem and one unfortunately that isn't likely to go away soon. Women have been looked upon as less than men for so long…too long! I say stick to it anyway! I'd tell them, "I'm not aggressive, just confident, which is exactly what you want in a consultant to get the job done." If they don't want to hire me again later due to it, then it just proves that I wouldn't want to work for them anyway. Idiots!
I’m not planning on changing my attitude any time soon.
If someone sees me as aggressive, so be it. I see myself as being fair and aware of my worth.
Totally agree. So frustrating! At my last job my boss called me greedy and money hungry because I asked for the raise I was promised months before. Then he laughed at me. I was only asking for what was promised to me. And even with that raise, which BTW I never got, I still would have been underpaid.
.-= Krystalatwork´s last blog ..Philosophy Hope in a Jar =-.
YES!
I was told “it’s not always about the money, if they offer you $10,000 less YOU SHOULD TAKE IT”… implying that I am not worth the extra $10,000 because I’m a girl.
Which is kind of funny, considering that women in IT are the exception, not the rule. So I should really be paid MORE for bringing diversity into the department, no?
But while complimenting me for bringing diversity into the department, they stab me in the back to tell me to take less money because I’m a girl.
I've always regarded being called a witch (or equivalent) a compliment. It means I won.
Hmm, that’s a good point. I still feel a bit annoyed at the negative labeling however.
Ugh. Just ugh. It does disgust me, anger me, annoy me… but then there is part of me that wants to say "Eff you, I'm happy to be a bitch." in order to get what I deserve.
So true, my friend, and the only time I ever feel discriminated against as a woman.