Penelope Trunk re-posted a letter from Bill, asking that Obama cap the hours as well as the salary.
Bill cites France, working 35 hours a week and being a “fine socialist country” to boot.
I heartily beg to disagree and I’ll tell you why.
Before I go on, this is not meant to be a slag on France, but since Bill has used France as an example, so shall I. But it could apply to any European country that takes it easy – something we all dream about.
If you capped hours here in North America, and told everyone to work 35 hours instead of 40 + over time, it would mean that we have to scale back our lifestyle even more.
Sounds like some skewed logic right? Well everything is connected in some way, much like a human body – the brain works with the heart, and the lungs … you get the picture.
Nothing comes in life for free, because you have to make tradeoffs in everything (no such thing as a free lunch?)… and I’m going to explain why I think 35 hours a week is not as rosy as we imagine it to be.
Anyway, North America, and the U.S. in particular has been built to the superpower that it is, on the basis of how many hours of work their citizens put in.
Now, I am not saying that ALL French people don’t work more than 7 hours a day (believe me, they do), but my point is that they don’t have a cap at 40 hours – it’s at 35. So by default, they’re working 250 hours less a year than the average North American (assuming we all stick to those hours).
Multiply that by the population of France:
61,538,322 x 250 = 15,384,580,500
..and you get that many hours LESS of productivity as a nation.
Multiply that by the population of the U.S. (assuming they adopt this cap):
And that’s how much productivity you lose as a nation in hours.
That’s.. a LOT.
At $20/hour, that means that the nation will earn $1,528,911,060,000 less and have that much less in income to spend to fuel the economy.
SO WHAT? SOUNDS GOOD TO ME!!
Well I’ll tell you what up, peachy butt.
If everyone worked less, that means that if you go to the grocery store on the weekend, it won’t be open from 9 a.m. until 6 p.m. It’d be open from noon until 5 p.m. Or not at all, because employees aren’t working 40 hours any more.
They’re working 35.
So if they work 5 hours less each person, and if they have to work over time to get the job done, the shops will just decide to lessen the hours and adjust them to how many people they already have to avoid hiring another employee, or to avoid paying overtime.
As a side note, in France for example, ice cream shops close up for the summer.
WHAT!?
Yeah.
My French sources tell me that a lot of them close for the summer because they want to take their summer vacation as well! They’re entitled to it, by Dieu!
So screw the tourists coming in by the droves from other countries, hot, sweaty and in need of some buttery French-churned ice cream, they’re on vacation, damn it!
And on Sundays, when you expect stores to be open at noon so you can pick up your dry cleaning or get your shoes fixed? Nuh uh.
They only work a couple of days here and there, and in certain seasons or months of the year, you cannot expect that they’ll be open at all, since they may be on vacation without any notice.
(True story! I subscribe to the Paris Blog, and these are all things I read on there).
From what I hear, Americans that move to France are surprised that things aren’t open 24/7, that people just leave for month-long vacations when they feel like it even though they own the shop and work for themselves and they just have to deal with the change of lifestyle that they were used to from the U.S.
So all of that great North American customer service? All of that sweetness you feel when a rep stays on the line longer than his shift just because he wanted to help you find the best computer? Or being able to dial your local butcher to ask him to prepare some chops for you?
Gone. They’re working 40 hours, not 35 and/or working less in general if they own their own business.
Now, let’s throw in some cultural/real-life variables
Executives and employees that I’ve had the pleasure of working with on many projects, would willingly work from 8 a.m. until 8 p.m. just to get a deal done, or get one last truck out the door to their clients.
In France, not so much.
They’d work 35 hours a week, or 7 hours a day, and that means that if you include lunch, they work 6 hours a day.
Yes, this is true. I’ve heard from many French people that they really savour and enjoy their lunches. So they take anywhere from 1-2 hours to eat.
Kudos for digestion.
They were miffed coming to Canada they were only allowed 45 minutes to an hour and were on deadline.
So if they have a citizens working 6 hours a day, or 30 hours a week you get an output of: 1500 hours per person, per year.
Versus in North America, citizens could work on average (at all levels) 8 – 9 hours a day because they have to stay late sometimes, or for whatever reason.
Let’s just say they stay at work 8.15 hours a day, including lunch. That’s 40.75 hours a week, or 2037.5 hours a year.
1500 versus 2037.50? Each North American is working more than their French counterpart.
They may not be as or more productive than a French person, but they’re working more.
More on efficiency in a bit.
(P.S. I haven’t even covered the numbers on the fact that an average French gets 8 weeks of vacation a year!)
Anyway, the good thing about working less….
….. that they have to hire more people as a result.
For every 8 people, they have to hire an extra 9th person to pick up that 5 hour slack (if they choose to do so).
Hey, more employment sounds like a good deal to me!
But take into consideration….
…. that companies may not choose to hire a 9th person, and just make 8 people overworked and stressed.
Boo-urns.
This is where efficiency comes into play, but is not the be-all and end-all.
It’s true, France is way more efficient per person since they only work 35 hours a week – they get more done, in a shorter amount of time, and with a cute accent to boot. And they have what we envy as a better, less hectic, more soulful lifestyle.
But we have to make tradeoffs (time or resources), which is something we seem to forget.
By sheer numbers and extra hours per citizen, the States trumps France, and as a result, they actually envy U.S. for being such a force to be reckoned with with such luxuries available to the average American that the average French almost feels poor in comparison.
The French, cook at home a lot and try to be as frugal as possible. They don’t eat out in restaurants (this is all coming from genuine, bonafide French sources).
They don’t use credit cards in Europe, they shop once a week for fresh groceries, they don’t buy frozen foods, and they simply do not spend any money if they can help it because they:
A) don’t have much of it
and/or
B) don’t want to
(Remember, they don’t use credit cards as often as North Americans).
For example, a baguette in France now costs 5 EUR from the last I heard. It used to cost 3 EUR. This has spawned a whole movement to bake your own bread at home because it’s too expensive to eat 5 EUR of bread every morning for breakfast.
It’s more expensive in restaurants now, they’ve all jacked up their prices. As a result, people are now picnicking and calling it “chic” to do so. So many people have shunned going to restaurants that the government actually put a special picnic tax on picnic items.
Where am I going with all of this?
Simple – we would not have everything that we have, as prosperous nations, if we all acted the way the French do.
If we all cut down our output of hours spent at the office, it means that we sell less, people buy less because they have less money, which means companies start laying off their workforce to turn a profit,.. and so on.
You are feeling the effects of what that would be like, RIGHT NOW to live like the French (if the U.S. wasn’t going through this recession), so imagine it being compounded and being worse with people having to cut back in their lifestyle even more because they aren’t working as much!
People have less money by the way, because they work 35 hours a week not 40, and at $20/hour that means you earn $400 LESS each month, or $4800 less a year.
You’d tighten your belt a bit more if you lost $400/month, I guarantee that.
We could not afford our current North American lifestyles (barring the fact that we couldn’t to begin with) without the hours and amount of work that we put in.
It makes me think of riots.
Have you ever seen a real live riot in person or on TV? The sheer force of people stampeding the streets, is more than what a small force of well-equipped, properly trained army men can handle.
These rioters can overpower even a small army tank, just because there are more of them working as a team. Sheer numbers.
So don’t envy the French too much or for the wrong reasons.
(I hear they’re going through a very rough economic time right now. Things are bad there. Really, really bad. Worse than before, if that was possible).
But what if I want to do it anyway?
Then you make a tradeoff, and a choice to do so.If you can choose to make that kind of change in your life and work only 35 hours a week, you’d have a heck of a lot more time on your hands (not including those fabulous 8 weeks of vacation)… of course!
But the downside is you’d have less money to spend as disposable income, and to boot, where you decide you want to spend your meager income may actually be closed for business because they’re on vacation too!
Hmm.
And North America wouldn’t be as powerful as it is now without the extra hours of hard work being put in by all of its citizens.
Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver.
I cleared $60,000 in 18 months earning $65,000 gross/year.
Now I am self-employed, and you can read more about 
FB,
I live near France (just over the border). I love your blog, and think you’re a smart girl. BUT, if you knew France even a little, you’d be really embarassed with what you wrote here (believe me, it’s way off, and I read your writing in disbelief and exhilaration!). But please, don’t let this discourage you from blogging, even about France 🙂
Here’s my impression on France vs the U.S.:
– GDP per person is about the same in both countries. More hours worked does not necessarily imply more output (look at Japan, or better, South Korea). Opposite of what you say, the French seem have to a better standard of living (wealth is spread out more evenly).
– in the U.S., work seems a more important part of people’s lives (in France, people will more often talk about other topics in their leisure time)
– there seems to be more pressure in the U.S. workplace
– the U.S. economy is more flexible (willingness to go the extra mile, firing people)
– the U.S. have a more meritocratic working culture than France (or Europe). In France the situation is so bad that, when applying for a nice job, who you know is often more important than your achievements.
Just my point of view 🙂
You are not “feeling the effects of what that would be like, RIGHT NOW to live like the French”.
As a (former) reader who has lived and worked in two of those “take it easy” European countries (UK/French-speaking Switzerland) I found this post really off-putting as it’s so badly researched.
You said: “with such luxuries available to the average American that the average French almost feels poor in comparison” 10 seconds on Google says: France number one for quality of life for 4th year running
You said: “The French…don’t eat out in restaurants” 10SOG says: In 2001, France’s…food sector served approximately 6.8 billion meals…in 175,000 outlets
“They don’t use credit cards in Europe” 10SOG says: There were…5.7 million credit cards in circulation in France in 2007 Although debit card use is more common than credit cards – I mean, why spend money you haven’t got?
I think your assumptions are flawed – as another reader pointed out, you’re assuming that all hours are worth the same, which they’re not. A fresh hour in the morning is more productive that an hour on the internet on Friday afternoon.
Second, you’re assuming that people won’t work late to get the job done, which is an assumption you don’t support. If people do still work late to get the job done (e.g. working 60 hours rather than 40 without extra pay) then the company would surely benefit from only paying for 35 rather than 40. The employee would not, and would probably demand a raise. Net, the employee gets paid the same, does the same work.
On the other hand, clock watchers (e.g. folks in retail who have to be there whether there’s work or not) may get more over time (and thus take home more) or, if it’s worth it, the company will create more jobs – the same as they do right now anyway.
You’re also assuming that every man, woman and child in the US does a 40 hour week seems unlikely and means all your following figures are out: it’s more like 142,099,000.
I work a 35 hour week, get taxed, as an American friend put it “out the wazoo” (roughly 1/3 of pay) and get 25 days holiday – plus 8 bank holidays, and 3 days office closure – a year. And yet my company and my team are still making money and I have a good quality of life. Strange that!
B.,
Hey, I didn’t say that everyone would do those things, but I know quite a few people who do or would if they had the time. (I already do those type of things because time isn’t quite my issue.) And maybe others say the same because that’s what they would do. What’s so hard about believing that people would do useful things with at least some of their time?
Anyhow, even if it did just give people more time to relax at home or at a bar or wherever, wouldn’t that be great? Can you imagine the difference it could make to society as a whole if people just had more time to chill? They might not be so negative and cynical.
Why do people think that having extra hours means you’re going to be all useful==take college classes? Garden? Read to the blind? I’d rather go to a bar or hang around the house. Quit trying to make this into a Playmobil world, folks.
When you own a small business, you work far more than 35 hours a week, and it’s not just to make more money. It’s a creative act, starting a little company or shop or whatever, and you want to grow it and nurture and create something lasting. I sure don’t need the Iron Hand of Government telling me to turn out the light and go to bed. F’ck ’em. It’s my office and I’ll work as much as I think I need to.
You want regular hours, work for the Post Office.
I wanted to add, that in many Eastern European countries, especially in the Baltic states, we are following more the American way, not so much the European, that is why we have all the supermarkets open until 11 PM and even on Sunday. When I moved to Germany (where it is illegal to keep a store open after 8 PM! only some little expensive stores have some kind of an extra license to do that), I asked myself and the locals, why they do not want to earn some more money by keeping the stores open, when many people are coming from work…because they do extra hours a lot. Actually many people here are angry on the government because of that, especially the store keepers…I still do not get it: Why they have this stupid rule…?
I understand your point and find it interesting but not everything is correct in your post. I spent part of my life in Europe and I was used to work with French people and my experience is quite different from what you describe.
Yes, stores have hell of opening hours (or should I say non-opening hours) but I don’t think people spend less for that reason. Don’t forget they only know that, are used to that and well, deal with that.
And no, not all ice cream stores are not closed all the summer … maybe they’re not run by their usual workers but they hire lots of students during summer.
Yes, they work 35hrs a week in theory but in a lot of company, they do not get compensation for overtime (or not for the first 5-10 hrs per week).
Yes, they have lots of holidays and days off but they pay way more taxes.
Yes, it’s usual for them to take a 2hours break for lunch but that is not part of their working hours … if they take 2hrs instead of 1, they stay 1 more hour in the evening.
Also, the idea of 35hrs a week was to have companies to hire more people. Where it doesn’t not work well is where the company doesn’t get the idea it will cost them less to hire more people than having over stressed workers who have to make overtime anyway.
Grad Student makes a good point by mentioning that French companies favour productivity gains through innovation rather than asking people to work more.
It all comes down to what we value and for a lot of us in North America we want to continue the lifestyles we have like you said FB. But if the whole world lived like North Americans, we would need 5 earths for everyone to live. Our ecological footprint is huge.
I’ve spent a lot of time in Europe, particularly in France and Italy, and I would get sooo frustrated because the stores would close so early and in summer months the hours are so irregular. Many Europeans value the simpler things in life though and would not want to trade places with a North American to have more material things. Many Europeans believe that life is way too short to work all the time.
North America wouldn’t be as powerful as it is now without the extra hours of hard work being put in by all of its citizens.
I have to disagree. If economic ability and power was determined by levels of labour alone, then why has China and India not lead since the 1950s? Surpluses in production under Chinese style communism is open for sale, and India has had a capitalist system in place for generations.
You’re a consultant (I think) so your opinion may be somewhat biased by your own experiences. As a fellow consultant, I understand the fact that ‘you eat what you kill’. How well you do is essentially determined by how hard you work. For business owners and CEOs, the attitude is the same.
That isn’t the case with the majority of North American labour. When it comes to labour this side of the Atlantic, most of it is ‘punch in/punch out’, where, like grade school, you stay as long as you have to, not necessarily until the job is done. The attitude is that you get by with as with as much as you have to do to keep employed.
Also, cutting back on lifestyles is unavoidable at this point for the majority of American consumers. This recession is in no way related to the levels of labour produced or available, or even the efficiency of that labour. This recession is related to credit, period. For far too long credit was too easy, too accessible, and overly abused. Combine that with the fact that the financial industry created complex derivative products based on the unsound credit, and sold A TONNE of it to the banks, and voila, you have the biggest credit crunch and recession since the 1930s once that credit comes do and the investments unravel.
I don’t know what they would be, but a comparison of American and French inflation is also important. If core inflation in the United States during the last twenty years was higher than France’s, then the French worker is better off than the American regardless of how many hours each put in at the office/factory/store.
While you say cutting back on lifestyles is a negative thing, it is the most obvious (and healthiest) reaction to these excesses generated by easy American credit.
are you serious? have you been to France? do you really believe that in the home of Dior that the French really spend little money? and go to restaraunts less???!!!! maybe fast food joints, but no, the many hours I’ve spent waiting for fine french dining would beg to differ.
and by your argument, french society is not successful…especially in contrast to the US? Grad Student has it right, the french mentality is so different from North American, but thats a good thing in many ways. Quality of life is high, especially compared to the Rat Race we’re all running in. I’m not saying an hourly work-week cap is the answer, but I think your argument fails to accurately draw the connection between the two concepts, you’re just throwing a bunch of stuff at a wall and hoping that it sticks. I worked more hours in France than I do here and I was much happier there in my work life. people don’t mess around as much at work in my experience, they go, they work, and they get their shit done so they can get out of there and go live their lives. they are a very efficient nation. here we seem to think if we work more hours we’ll get more done, but after 50 or 60 per week, I’m pretty sure the productivity scale craps out, especially over the long term. and productivity is only one very poor way to measure. what about loyalty to employers, long term career stability (instead of jumping around every 3 years), job satisfaction, etc?
the french haven’t been duped into thinking they can buy “fake happiness” the way we’re convinced that a new Escalade and a big screen will do for us. We could all learn a lesson from the much older, more established french society. Not that everything there is perfect, far from it, but they do get alot right.
Sorry but I think the French have a much better handle on the work/life balance than americans. The 35 hour work week was instituted because France’s economy wasn’t big enough to keep everyone employed at 40 hours a week. The unemployment rate was too high. Work less, spread the jobs around and spend more time with friends and family. All meals take at least an hour, lunch 1-2 hours and dinner 2-3 hours. As an American it drove me nuts, but I could adjust to the lifestyle. They are much more relaxed and simply seem happier, they must make less money yet the lack of it doesn’t worry them. Americans have this martyr view of working, we much work ourselves to death or we are not worthy. Our puritan roots have been a big part of our success, but at what cost?
I had this debate with people before but you articulated it well. The problem is that some of the benefits of the French way are somewhat intangible. How would you quantify quality time at home? Eating healthy? Less stress at work? I am not sure if the income taxes in France are higher than the US, I think their health care is free to, maybe that too is a factor.
Maybe from a financial point of view the US wins, not sure about other aspects.
I think that the idea of productivity being strongly correlated to hours at work is incorrect, at least in an office environment.
For example, in America workers spend MUCH more time socializing on office time than Europeans do. I worked at a Microsoft, and our team often had visitors from Portugal, Norway, Sweden, and France come in to learn about the team's practices. They all had a few things in common – they were surprised how much people worked, and how much time people wasted. They were generally very industrious, and got a ton done in the 2 weeks that they would be in Redmond.
At one time in my life, about 9 years ago, I spent a year living in Greece. People took an afternoon siesta each day from about 2 – 5. Shops were closed, restaurants were closed, tourists were confused, and it was lovely. I realize that I could do that now – arrange my work schedule so that I have afternoons off, but without the cultural support of a whole nation taking afternoons off it loses most of the charm. And imagine how your co-workers would feel – angry & cheated, and that wouldn't make work a very nice place to be. And, that is why I think that it is hard to live like the french while being in America.
Growing my my mom worked 40 hour workweeks and my dad worked 60 – 80 hours a week. My mom was a teacher, and my dad did white-collar government work. And, you know, I think that despite the fact that he loved both his work and his family, that he really missed out. And, he thinks that too, which is especially sad since he still works 60+ hours a week, despite having retired a few years ago.
This whole comment (which has gotten quite epic) can be summed up into the thought that "Saying you can choose how you live is a lovely idea, but the reality of living differently than everyone around you is difficult and stressful".
Shouldn’t we all tighten the belt a little anyway? I’d take $400 less a month if it meant I was at work 35 hours a week– and zero weekends.
Since that won’t happen, I’m just going to continue being productive on my 9th straight day of work!! I (heart) 50-60 hour work weeks!
Proof of claim on 50% of the “facts” you stated?
Seems like you are just throwing random numbers hoping they stick.
Just to give you some direction:
The French work, on average, is 41 hours per week. They also just increased the max. number of working days per adult.
Really interested to see why you used $20/hr, too. Average US wage is closer to around $18/hr (a 10% difference…) and this is not a linear relationship… a simple 1 hour increase in labor does not equate to $18 in added value to the economy.
This topic would be better off broken down by industry (manufacturing vs manufacturing, farming vs farming, etc). If we find that their farmers, for example, work 55hrs/wk and ours work 50 hrs/wk that is most likely a productivity gain for them. And on the flip side if their Starbucks baristas work 15hrs/wk instead of 20hrs/wk the productivity impact as a whole is much less significant even though the hours is the same.
I am going to have to disagree, my dear!
Many, many universities in the US function on a 35-hour work week and it’s fabulous. Additionally, for salary positions (including many, many office drones) – many people stretch out their work to fill the 8 hours. If you have one less hour, you are going to be MORE productive. Less YouTube and Facebook, more doing work. 🙂
Quality of life is higher than the US, as well. (Source.)
They have better work-family balance and give long maternity leave – both issues that I care about as a woman! 🙂
And as far as the grocery store not being open – underemployment is a HUGE problem in the US. Huge for minimum wage and hourly employees. It’s not as though the grocery bagger is working a 40-hour-work week now.
I think you raise a valid question – would the French model for work fit us well – but I happen to think they have it more right than we do.
I’m still wrestling with the words “fine socialist nation” – no thanks, Bill.
I work about 32 hours a week and I LOVE the extra free time, it is totally worth the lifestyle adjustment. My employer hired me to work less than full time, with full time benefits. When I had student loans and credit card debt I worked full time plus a second job. When not spending money means the difference between three days off a week or one, I’ll keep my wallet closed. But that is the great thing about N. America, choice! not government mandate.
I do wish for healthcare for everyone, though.
I agree! I love the fact that I can find a 24hr pharmacy or grocery store here in the US. It would be great if our hours could be reduced to 35 a week, but that isn’t looking into other factors that make our economy what it is. That’s just not how the US works.
Hmmm, “any other European country that takes it easy”… OK, there are some, I haven´t been to France, but I know in the Southern Europe the “ma~nana” mentality is much bolder… still there are some pluses about it. If you are in Spain, you feel, that everything does not has to do with money: how much, how fast and on the cost of what you can make money! Still the life is beautiful and people seem to be happier and more balanced, than in the US I have noticed them to be. Life is too short to put it all into work. Side note: I come from a country where we have 40 hours working week and I live in another European country, where it is also 40 h and it is known as a hardworking mentality country in the whole world, which does not mean always the best for the life quality in general.
I don’t think that a strict hours cap is the answer. However, I do think that an overall reduction in hours per person might solve a lot of problems.
First off, right now we have an epidemic of a lot of people being overworked. And that doesn’t help our productivity. My husband sometimes works 80 hours weeks — with no overtime because he’s salary. He’s started making stupid mistakes because he doesn’t have time to get a full night’s sleep and I fear for his health — not to mention his safety and that of others as he drives a lot. Abuses like that need to stop! And companies should see that overworking their employees makes them less productive!
Second, a reduction in hours — assuming productivity didn’t increase to compensate — would require companies to hire more people. And there are plenty of people to hire right now! Unemployment would drop.
Third, people would have more time to do all those things they say the never have time for: be active in the raising of their kids (great for society!), exercise (less spent on healthcare!), spend time with their loved ones (perhaps fewer divorces!), cook, garden, read books, take college classes, etc.
So, while we may not want to go as far as France, I do think that we need to come up with some ways to distribute all those hours over more people and give some people a break.
interesting. . .
You have to be careful when you analyze French mentality, yes it is at the opposite of North America but no it isn’t completly illogic.
People won’t buy more clothes or food because the store is open on Sundays or until 9pm on week nights, but the store will have to ask their worker to work more hours just to open the store on that day and they won’t be able to pay them as high a salary.
French mentality says: the productivity will be higher if we close the store on Sundays AND the worker will be happier because he can enjoy some free time on the week end.
And believe it or not, it somehow worked. French companies favoured productivity gains through innovation rather than asking French people to work more hours. As a result, French productivity is 25% higher than Canada, or put differently, they roughly produce the same output as Canada while working a lot less.
But of course there are disadvataes as well, but I just wanted to present the other side of the medal.
Seriously, I’ve always heard that people in the U.S. are work-a-holics and it’s so true, but what does it give us?! More money – not really. More stress – definitely. I am gone for at least 13 hours a day (most of that at work, with an hour at the gym, plus time waiting for public transit). It’s exhausting. And today is only Tuesday. Maybe it’s just my career, but I doubt it!
FB, Bravo! It’s so true. The ideal of French life is one thing, while the reality would be MORE devastating to the US and Canada. The recession would be worse, prices would be jacked up AGAIN (food prices here are RIDICULOUS now), oil companies would raise the price of gas, etc etc etc.
It would be a downward spiral. Besides, there’s supposed to be a 24% unemployment rate by the summer in Canada, due to the massive layoffs in most industries (steel, cars, oil, and even retail).
So yeah, people WONT be working, and hence, the economy is going to hurt a LOT more.
Nothing’s open on Sundays in Germany either, except for a couple of bakeries and fast food places. It forces you to relax on Sundays, which is nice, but it also means that the stores are CRAZY on Saturdays. Fortunately, I can get my errands done during the week, but not everyone has that option.
Always cooking at home with fresh ingredients takes a ton of time too. I go to the grocery store way more than once a week…at least every other day. But then again, I’m healthier for the effort.